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Harbaugh/zhongwen.com deck collaboration?

#26
I already did 2-1 to 2-17 on the shared anki deck, do I have to fill in those sections on the google doc again?

1) You mean just type "Water" instead of "Water 水"(the way it shows in zhongwen)? Okay, it's a lot easier if I don't have to type hanzi in between the English.

2)了解 I never knew about the <br> thing, I'll start using it now.

3) I was a bit confused when zhongwen listed "tà 普 dá", but I just reproduced what it showed. I guess it's typo on the site if it says "國 tà 普 dá" in the book.

Does anyone have any tips for typing? I can only type traditional hanzi and I have to search an online dictionary to gather the simplified forms(I could switch my IME setting the simplified, but then I'd have to search for traditional forms). I can't type pinyin tones either, so I have to use a different site for that too.
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#27
You just need to export the Anki deck as a tab-separated .txt file and then copy the info over to Google Docs.

1) Yes. But if it's a phonetic, give the pinyin. So for instance, "with shuǐ phonetic." Take a look at how I have it in chart 1.

3) Hm...looks like that's my mistake. Usually he distinguishes between 國 (for 國語, the name for Mandarin in Taiwan) versus 普 (for 普通話, the name for Mandarin in China) usage, so I assumed that's what he was doing without checking the book. I'm guessing he was trying to show that tà is used in both places, but in China they also have dá as a reading. My fault (fixed).

As far as input, if you're on a Mac I can help you. On anything else, though, not so much. But you should be able to switch between traditional and simplified IMEs, or even between traditional and simplified character output within the same IME. If you use Windows, I believe Sougou is one of the best IMEs. Google Pinyin IME is OK (I've used it a bit), but if Sougou is anything like the Mac version (called QIM Sougou), I'd go with that.

As far as diacritics, it's very easy on a Mac. Set your keyboard to U.S. Extended and use the option key in combination with a, e, v, and ` for first through fourth tones, respectively, then type the letter that goes under the diacritic. So opt+a then pressing e will give you ē. Again, on any other OS, I'm not sure how it works but I'm sure there would be something similar.

I guess you could use MDBG.net for both the simplified forms and the pinyin if that turns out to be easier for you.
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#28
Looks like there are some problems with some of Harbaugh's glyphs. Sometimes it's a case of odd pronunciation choice, making it hard to find the character in the IME. For example rén for 儿 (11-1) is likely historical, since in Cantonese it's yan, but normally in Mandarin it's ér. Sometimes though, Harbaugh uses a glyph which doesn't really exist in Unicode. I think some of the "correct" (orthodox) glyphs didn't exist on computers when he made the book, so he made them himself the best he could. If that's the case, I'd prefer to substitute the orthodox glyph. This is the case with 7-1 and 8-1.

If any of these types pop up and give you trouble (I'm sure there will be more), let me know. I have two copies of 說文 (one a reprint of a several-centuries-old edition and one a modern resetting) and a copy of Wieger at home, and I can more or less make my way through simple Classical Chinese (the kind found in old dictionaries). Also, I like doing this kind of stuff. It's really fascinating to me. Big Grin
Edited: 2010-05-08, 9:03 am
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JapanesePod101
#29
Also, I added another column (G) for notes. If there's anything funky about an entry you think needs mentioning, just put it there.
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#30
How do I get the anki online deck imported to my offline anki?
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#31
yukamina Wrote:How do I get the anki online deck imported to my offline anki?
You'll have to put in the username and password I sent you in the Network tab of the Preferences dialog, then click File->Download->Personal Deck. Then you can change it back to your own login info.
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#32
Incidentally, if you can't see this character (㳄) then you'll need to install a new font. It's part of CJK Extension A. There's a free font set called Han Nom A and Han Nom B that contain all the glyphs from CJK Extensions A and B. They're available here.
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#33
ta12121, have you been able to start on chart 3? If not, there's another member that emailed me and wants to help out, so we ccould get jiangdh started on chart 3 and you can just jump back in whenever you're able to. If you have gotten started, let us know where you are in the process so I can know which chart to get jiangdh started on.
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#34
Can the deck be updated with what's been done so far? I thought it might be good to start studying and reviewing the stuff I entered recently before it completely fades from my memory.

Is ta12121 still on the project? Should we redivide the work to fit the new member?
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#35
bflatnine Wrote:ta12121, have you been able to start on chart 3? If not, there's another member that emailed me and wants to help out, so we ccould get jiangdh started on chart 3 and you can just jump back in whenever you're able to. If you have gotten started, let us know where you are in the process so I can know which chart to get jiangdh started on.
sorry stuff has come up(full-time summer work). So at the moment i'm ok with lettting someone else join in. I'll let you know when I can start again.
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#36
ta12121 Wrote:sorry stuff has come up(full-time summer work). So at the moment i'm ok with lettting someone else join in. I'll let you know when I can start again.
Cool, no worries. Just let us know if you're able to jump back in.

yukamina Wrote:Can the deck be updated with what's been done so far? I thought it might be good to start studying and reviewing the stuff I entered recently before it completely fades from my memory.
I'd like to do that, too. I do want to keep the deck in the right order though, so we can only update it with as much as we have done continuously. So right now, only chart 1 and 2 are able to go into the deck. Charts 3, 6, and 9 are only a total of 42 entries, so if we can fill those in, plus what I have left to do in chart 12, then we can update the deck with 1-12 (I'll be finishing 10 in the morning). So, it should be in the next few days.

However, feel free to import the spreadsheet into your own deck whenever you like. You should be able to download it as a csv file and import it.

Quote:Should we redivide the work to fit the new member?
Yes. I need to work out a way to make it so that jiangdh can help us (she is in China and so can't access Google Docs). But in the meantime, if you can take chart 3, I'll get 6, 9 and finish 10 in the morning. I might also have time to finish my part of chart 12, or at least I'll have time on Tuesday.

I think I'll just email her the spreadsheet so she can see how we're doing it, and then she can just email me a spreadsheet of each chart when she gets them done. Then, every once in a while I'll send her a copy of the updated spreadsheet. It isn't ideal, but I'm not sure of a better way to do it.
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#37
Hi bflatnine,

I started making a zhongwen.com deck for myself before, but stopped before 200 (I think) characters. But I'm quite familiar with the format of the site. One thing to note is that words that are pointed to by a solid arrow (----|>) are not really part of that chart (it 'belongs' to another chart).

Can you send me the link to the google doc as well as which section to do? I will probably do the tasks around this time (11PM in GMT+8)
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#38
Sweet, thanks!

If you still have the info for chart 3 it might be easy for you to just paste it in and maybe make a few modifications to fit how we've got it set up. Even if you don't still have it, maybe it would be best if you went ahead and took chart 3. That way yukamina can just continue with 14 instead of having to backtrack, since 14 is a big chart. I'm finishing 10 today (in progress right now) and I'll be finishing 12 either later today or tomorrow, depending on time, so then we'll have all of 1-12 done.

So since we now have 4 people, once we get 1-12 completed, let's plan on continuing on to chart 20 in this way:

13 bflatnine
14 yukamina
15 jiangdh
16 zodiac
17 bflatnine
18 yukamina
19 jiangdh
20 zodiac

14 and 15 are huge compared to the rest, so the rest of us can pitch in to help complete those once we've got our own charts done. Once we finish up through 20 we'll see where we stand again as far as contributors and plan from there.
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#39
OK, so 1-11 are all done. I should be finishing 12 today.

Just a note: Please be careful with formatting. I had to go in and correct a lot of stuff today (and I'm sure there's still some). Specifically:


Put <br> in between definitions, even e.g. if there are 2 形 in a row

Incorrect pinyin (more on this in a minute)

Include all grammar abbreviations (名, 動, etc.), even e.g. if there are 2 形 in a row

If something is a phonetic, please include the pinyin (with tone marks). Things like "Person (phonetic)" don't help much.

Any notes you want to make, make them in column G, not in the other columns.


Something to note: Harbaugh makes a lot of pinyin mistakes (tone marks placement specifically). If you're not sure of pinyin tone mark rules, it may help to use something like the pinyinput IME, which will place the tone marker over the correct vowel for you. If you want to learn the rules, this is a quick and handy overview. Disregard the part about "three vowels." I think they were considering the nasal endings as vowels (-n and -ng). But for syllables like jiāo, the rule applies.

One last thing: if there's a glyph you can't figure out how to input, just mention it in this thread. And try to stay away from shortcuts (like putting 爻爻 for 㸚). There should always be a way to find the right character, since every character in 說文 has been included in Unicode. I've subscribed to this thread, so I'll usually be able to get to it fairly quickly. And like I said, I enjoy looking this stuff up. It's interesting.
Edited: 2010-05-11, 4:51 pm
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#40
I see you've filled in the characters I couldn't find, thanks. 14-109 is another one that I missed.

I think I've been formatting things correctly, if not please point out any issues.
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#41
yukamina Wrote:I see you've filled in the characters I couldn't find, thanks. 14-109 is another one that I missed.

I think I've been formatting things correctly, if not please point out any issues.
Thanks. I got 14-109 in.

I don't remember the specifics of who did what. I just kind of went through and fixed what I saw. And to be honest I'd prefer not calling people out specifically anyway because I'm really thankful you are all helping out with this project. It wasn't tons of errors, but just enough for me to realize that something needed to be said if I didn't want to spend too much time editing.

I think it's important for us to be detailed about this if it's going to be a good resource for learners, and I think it has the potential be a tremendous resource. In fact, like I've mentioned, once we're done I'll be working on adding Seal Script images to the deck. I may also end up adding other things like 說文 and 康熙 glosses, pronunciation in different languages and dialects, 反切 spellings, tone in Middle Chinese, other ancient forms (oracle bone, bronze scripts, etc), known variants, reconstructed pronunciations, etc. Obviously this is a bit beyond the scope of most people's needs or interests, and I'll likely have to wait until I'm in grad school to find people willing to help with a project like that.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the help so far. It's coming together really nicely.
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#42
Can the deck be updated with charts 1-12 now?
I'm not very good at tinkering around in Anki. I exported the spreadsheet to a new deck for myself, but it only shows the chart number on the front and the traditional hanzi on the back ^_^;
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#43
Done.

For the Anki issue, you need to go into Deck Properties and click Edit. Make sure you have enough fields for everything, then click Card Templates and pick which fields you want on the front and back. In my copy of the deck, I have it like this:

Front

Quote:%(Pinyin)s

%(Definitions)s

%(Etymology)s

%(Harbaugh No.)s
Back

Quote:%(Character)s

%(Simplified)s
Having the %()s is important.

I also have a field for the notes, but I don't include it in the actual card.

If you get your deck set up that way, you should be set to just import sections of the spreadsheet as we go along.
Edited: 2010-05-13, 12:38 pm
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#44
wow what a great project! only for curiosity but it's possible to know when this deck will be complete and available?
One year ago I bought the book and started to do my own deck but, well, I lost it when i formatted my pc some months ago...I was at 1700 hanzi or so
thx for all
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#45
Official publication date is slated for Junevember 34th. Smile

But really, no clue. I hope we can finish by late June/ early July but those are Heisig dates (RTH was delayed 2 years for those who don't get the reference). The more help we can get, the better of course. Hint, hint.
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#46
OK so...I haven't heard from jiangdh in a while. My emails are going unanswered. So, I imagine chart 15 isn't being worked on right now. If I still haven't heard from her by tomorrow (it is the weekend after all), I'll just assume she isn't helping us out and I'll start in on chart 15. If anyone wants to split it with me, let me know.

I'm guessing zodiac is a little busy right now since he hasn't been able to work on the deck in a few days. If so, no worries. I'm going to finish 16, 19, and 20 tonight so that 15 is the only thing keeping us from being done up through chart 20. Then once 15 is done, we can update the deck again and re-assign charts.
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#47
I can split 15 with you if you don't hear from jiangdh.
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#48
This is a great project. Sadly I have finals this month and I am behind in two subjects.
Do you think you can use my help starting June-ish? I'd be glad to help.
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#49
gyuujuice Wrote:This is a great project. Sadly I have finals this month and I am behind in two subjects.
Do you think you can use my help starting June-ish? I'd be glad to help.
Absolutely! But yes, definitely study up for finals first. Just pop back in here when you're ready and I'll send you the link to the spreadsheet.
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#50
By the way, I just heard back from jiangdh. She had a busy week at work. No worries. She sent me what she's gotten done so far on chart 15. I'm going to split the rest of it with her, so we should be able to knock it out within a few days. That means we'll be done up through chart 20. Yukamina is already working on 22. So between 21 and 32 we'll break it up like this:

21 - bflatnine
22 - yukamina
23 - jiangdh
24 - zodiac
25 - bflatnine
26 - yukamina
27 - jiangdh
28 - zodiac
29 - bflatnine
30 - yukamina
31 - jiangdh
32 - zodiac

Again, if anyone finishes early, feel free to go back and help those with longer charts so we can more or less stay within the same block of 12-ish and keep the Anki Online deck current.


Another thing: jiangdh brought up a good question. She's been including the vocabulary items at the end of each entry in a separate column (H). I told her that since my original plan was for the deck to be geared toward learning characters only (and etymology/Seal Script), I had left the vocab out, and we've continued that way. She said that it helps her with retention, though, and I could see how it would be useful. So I wanted to see what everyone else thought. Should we include the vocab in this spreadsheet?

Another idea I had was to leave the vocab for a later project. Maybe a follow-up project to this. Kind of a "Core X000" vocab list for Chinese, sorted in Harbaugh's order. Maybe it would look something like this.

Quote:一般 yībān 副 generally: ~~來說 generally speaking<br>形 average
一半 yībàn 名 half
一輩子 yībèizi 名 形 lifetime
etc.
The tilde would represent the vocab word being learned, so 『~~來說』 is 『一般來說』.

If there's enough interest (and enough collaborators), we could also get example sentences from nciku, University of Maine, and others. This could become a tremendous resource (also a tremendous undertaking). But even without example sentences, this would be a great vocab list to use as a guide for mining sentences, and it's based on exactly the 4280 characters in Harbaugh, and sorted in the same order.

So, thoughts? Include the vocab in this deck and get it all done in one fell swoop, or save the vocab for a follow-up project?
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