Back

Users study methods

#26
This topic resurfaces frequently (which is suggested in the OP), and I therefore kindly suggest stickying it under Learning Resources. Perhaps someone could start another topic titled "Discussion of Study Methods" to complement this one, or this thread could be re-titled to "Discussion on Users Study Methods" so that both topics can finally have a single thread dedicated to them.
Reply
#27
Babyrat Wrote:@activeaero,

I might actually try your "if I could go back" method, as I find that the sentence way does work but not to the extent that it should be for me.

Could you expand on the grammer part a bit more, maybe giving a couple of examples of how you would add it into Anki?
All I would do is take the 2-3 example sentences from each "pattern" in the book, highlight the key grammar points, and then add it to the deck with the explanation/translation of the grammar point on the answer side.

I think the big key is to then read grade appropriate material that only covers the grammar you have learned. This is why I love my Japanese Graded Readers. The vocabulary is very basic and the grammar patterns are strictly limited to a certain level. I think this follows the comprehensible input idea that one of the other posters often mentions.

So if I had to completely start from scratch again it would probably look like this:

1. RTK1 + Kana

2. Burn through 500-1000 of super basic vocab using pure vocab cards, no sentences.

3. Go through something like Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication and add a few full sentence cards for each grammar point/sentence pattern. When I mean few I literally mean like 2-3 sentences.

4. Start reading grade appropriate material as much as possible. Japanese Graded Readers are great for this.

5. As you read you'll start to identify which grammar patterns give you trouble. You can then add extra grammar explanations into your SRS for these trouble patterns. This is the reason I said to only add a few sentences per pattern in step 3. Some grammar points are very easy to pick up in context while others aren't. This why, IMO at least, adding a ton of example sentences per pattern in the beginning is a waste of time.

6. Burn through more pure vocab cards as fast as possible and use all of your remaining time reading, reading, and reading some more. I should be reading right now matter of fact.

7. Once you've mastered lower level reading material and are ready to move up add in more new grammar sentences as described in step 3.


BTW I would only recommend this method if you are going to get through vocab as fast as possible so you can get on to actually reading real material. If you are only going to add 10-20 vocab cards a day then you should probably stick to sentence cards. The reason I say this is because at such a slow pace it will be a while before you are actually able to read anything with good comprehension, which is key. If you aren't going to be getting the comprehension practice from real material you'll need to SRS sentences for context.

That being said try not to do that. Reading real material is key so get to doing it as fast as possible.
Reply
#28
activeaero, are there any free Japanese Graded Readers available online or any equivalent materials? Spending more time with native texts appeals to me much more than spending time SRSing. However, from what I've seen, the prices for these readers seem a little inflated.
Reply
May 15 - 26: Pretty Big Deal: Get 31% OFF Premium & Premium PLUS! CLICK HERE
JapanesePod101
#29
Dear Tobberoth and others,

How in the world did you get your grammar to JLPT2 level? If you have a spare moment, I'd love to hear what grammar texts you used!

Thanks!
Reply
#30
What I did was get kanzen master 2Kyuu and use it in conjuction with the dictionary of grammar deck. So I unsuspended a few sentences per grammer point from that deck to save me the trouble of having to do any input. It's a seriously worthwhile investment in your learning.
Reply
#31
Whenever I do a search for Kanzen Master 2Kyuu I never get a concrete example of what it is. Where should I get it? Is it a book? Dictionary of Grammar deck? Is that on the Anki download list?

So confusing. :0

Edit: Although that's for JLPT 2, right? Maybe I can put that book off for a while?
Edited: 2010-02-07, 4:14 pm
Reply
#32
This is Kanzen Master.

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Language-...=pd_cp_b_1
Reply
#33
KumoriLite Wrote:Dear Tobberoth and others,

How in the world did you get your grammar to JLPT2 level? If you have a spare moment, I'd love to hear what grammar texts you used!

Thanks!
Well, I lived in Japan taking classes in Japanese there, that's where I got the knowledge of grammar needed to pass JLPT2. Here's the books etc I used:

1. Minna no Nihongo (both books). This covers pretty much everything JLPT4 and JLPT3.
2. Chuukyuu kara manabu. This covers JLPT2 reading comprehension.
3. Kanzen Master Grammar 2kyuu. Mined every sentence in it.

With those 3 and enough exposure and practice, JLPT2 grammar becomes quite easy to handle, especially if you back it up with the awesome "Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar" series.
Reply
#34
Tobberoth,

I will write these book names down for future use. However they are very rare here in America (or at least from what I can tell), and the used ones on Amazon go for $40+. Do you know an easier way to order these books? Any good websites? Or should I just suck it up and get a used one from Amazon?
Reply
#35
Well, I'm learning Korean and I have a log here which I (try to) update daily.

I try to listen as much as I can in one day, my average is 4.8 hours a day, it's mostly passive but I still try to get used to the sounds. I have a many decks for each source I used. A manhwa deck, a TV deck etc. They have both vocabulary cards and sentence cards.
Edited: 2010-02-13, 1:25 pm
Reply
#36
KumoriLite Wrote:How in the world did you get your grammar to JLPT2 level? If you have a spare moment, I'd love to hear what grammar texts you used!
Like Tobberoth, I basically got from JLPT3 to 2 by class study, using the tail end of Minna no Nihongo (JLPT3 ish level) and then the _New Approach_ intermediate and advanced books. I quite like the NA books but I'm not sure how well they'd work as self-study texts. (They are sometimes a bit brief about the meanings of grammar points, though not so much so as the Kanzen Master grammar books, I think.)
Reply
#37
Are the Japanese Graded Readers like the JLPT, with level 4 being the easiest, or do they go the other way?

@vileru, they are downloadable--just google "JGR pdfs".
Reply
#38
on my first post I have Inserted anchor links to the methods in this thread for ease of use.

I will be putting my method into this post, but im in the process of changing it
Edited: 2010-02-08, 9:07 am
Reply
#39
KumoriLite Wrote:Dear Tobberoth and others,

How in the world did you get your grammar to JLPT2 level? If you have a spare moment, I'd love to hear what grammar texts you used!

Thanks!
For JLPT2 grammar, I think I pretty much used this site http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt2/grammar/
and 日本語総まとめ問題集 2級 文法編

And of course, lots of reading.
Reply
#40
Question for those using vocab only decks as opposed to sentence decks:

Are you in environments where you are speaking a lot of Japanese? I find my sentence deck comes in handy more often than not during speaking situations where it is much easier for me to use a new word because I have a phrase or sentence to relate it to.

I was thinking of doing a vocab deck for just nouns. I have found that that it is better (for me) to memorize adjectives, adverbs, and verbs in a sentence. For example:

うっかり
すっかり
そっくり
びっくり
どっかり
すっきり
OR
のろのろ
うろうろ
ぐずぐず
ぼろぼろetc.

If I just did those just as vocab cards I dont think there is anyway I would be able to remember them. But in a sentence deck I have things I associate with each (a picture in my mind that the sentence represents)

What do you vocabbers think?!
Reply
#41
I think the vocab deck is actually helping. With words like those, it's easy to start relying on the sentence so much that you simply don't understand them in different contexts. For example, I have のろのろ in my vocab deck and know exactly what it means. Since I have a sentence on the back of the card, I also know how to use it. Same is true with the other words I have there, like うとうと、ごろごろ、ちゃらちゃら etc.
Reply
#42
Quick question Tobberoth:

In your mind, is the benefit of the vocab deck speed? If you have an example sentence on the back , do you always read it?

Strongly considering this move to a vocab deck but it aint easy when you have been attached to a sentence deck for almost a year and it has been so good to me!!
Edited: 2010-02-08, 6:29 pm
Reply
#43
zakstern Wrote:Quick question Tobberoth:

In your mind, is the benefit of the vocab deck speed? If you have an example sentence on the back , do you always read it?

Strongly considering this move to a vocab deck but it aint easy when you have been attached to a sentence deck for almost a year and it has been so good to me!!
It's not like you have to move over completely. Just start adding some vocab cards as well and see where it takes you.

To answer your question, I only read the sentence if I don't remember how the word is used. I press hard if I can just remember an English translation or concept, I want to be able to think of a Japanese sentence using the word, so the sentence is mostly there so I can make sure I got the basic usage right if I'm uncertain. I've noticed that as cards mature, I look at the sentence less and less.
Reply
#44
I don't live in Japan but lately I've decided get some speaking practice every day and for that I've started an Output deck to supplement my learning.

The vocab deck works for raw speed but 話す時は使いこなすことができません。Once you either read it lots in the real world or try to think of it in conversation, fail, look it up, then it sticks in active vocab. Pure vocab decks work magic on upping comprehension both written and aural (still requires lots of listening). Moving the words to active vocab happens with speaking practice.

I don't have a sentence on the back unless it's absolutely necessary. With the kinda words like ぶっくり I have a sentence on the front in order to actually remember what they mean.

It depends on your goals and your level whether or not a vocab deck will suit you.
Reply
#45
What I do now is drastically different from what I did three months ago and probably very different than what I will do three months from now.

#1- Live with a Japanese native speaker. I speak Japanese to her and she speaks English to me. She is too timid to correct my mistakes so it is not as effective as I would like. Her English is really bad so I only understand her through charades most of the time.

#2- I watch TV with captions on so I can read and listen at the same time.

#3- Lang-8: I saved the profile pages of about 50 Japanese students of English and read their journals, correcting them as I go. Users are constantly joining and quiting so it has to be updated often. They love to write about Japanese culture and festivals. You have to find the users who include the original Japanese for each sentence and then translate it directly below it (about 10% of them) in this format:
始めに日本語を書くと、英語の日記 の意味を理解するのに役立ちます。
If you include the original Japanese draft, it helps me understand what the true intention of your English journal was.

#4- Surf the net with Yahoo! Japan while reading the websites using Rikaichan add-on from Firefox.

#5- Get listening practice in with the thousands of sentences on Smart.fm with professionally read audio. Just close your eyes and translate the sentences in your head.

#6- News Clips with transcripts
朝日
NHK
TV東京
FNN There is an option to watch all videos in a stream that lasts an average of 90 minutes. You can also watch in slow motion.
Reply
#46
My study method was basically an amalgamation of the most common methods I found on the forum at the time, structured so that I could blow through as much structured learning material as quickly and efficiently as possible and then get on to reading and mining real native material.

(Obviously, I used Anki in conjunction with all of these. Just basic recognition cards, no output)

1. RtK 1

2. Tae Kim

3. KO2001

4. KM 2kyuu and 1kyuu books

5. JLPT 1 Wordlist (I had intended to sit the JLPT 1 last December. I scrapped this part of my plan fairly quickly though, as Uni exams got in the way, and I ended up not studying Japanese, or sitting the exam, for 4 months - oops)

6. Finally, where I am now-->Mining native stuff (I'm particularly excited to have found out about the new drama seasons being fully subbed)

That's a lot of pre-structured material, and I certainly wouldn't recommend that for everyone. If you don't have a lot of study time, you might get fed up with spending so much time on boring canned material. But I think it was extremely beneficial for me because I was able to blow through it all in about 3 or 4 months. I wouldn't have learned anywhere near as much material if I had been purely sentence mining native material, because I just wouldn't have been able to match the efficiency of sources like KO2001.

Now that I've clawed my way back from my 4k review Anki backlog I plan on continuing to the (fun) part of my study plan, which is basically mining anything I want to from this point on. As it is I can understand upwards of 50-60% of most things I encounter (anime, drama, manga, websites) from just the structured material I've already done, so mining native stuff is pretty easy from this point on. Much easier than if I had tried to dive straight into it from RtK. Although I think the common consensus on the forums has swung away from such a focus on structured learning material.
Reply
#47
blackmacros Wrote:amalgamation
ouch :o

btw, always interesting reading your (crazy) methods. Of course I mean crazy in a good, but crazy, way. Glad you're back!
Edited: 2010-02-12, 1:57 pm
Reply
#48
How many do you put on minerals? When do you build your 4th pylon?
Reply
#49
I've tried sticking to one method in a linear fashion, but I get bored out of having a brain. So I've just loaded a bunch of different subdecks into one anki deck. To lazy to change between decks anyway, and this way I can't slack off on one of them, which I probably would otherwise.

1. A vocab deck, consisting of 10.000+ words. Most of these contain sounds. And every new word I come across gets added to this.

2. Grammar decks. I have Tae Kim and All about particles. Almost finished with these two.

3. Sub2srs decks.

4. Smart.fm sentences

5. Kanji deck.

Daily I unsuspend in a linear fashion about 10 items from each of these, except for the kanji deck, though when I get these weird kanji hunger urges I'll add extra kanji, in generally I only unsuspend them while I stumble upon them in the rest of my studies.

Every new word and kanji gets cross referenced within the rest of my deck, and I unsuspend extra vocabulary and smarf.fm sentences that come up in the search, which are related by kanji, reading and meaning but don't introduce other new kanji or readings.
Since the material is rather diverse, but also related I go through 100 new cards a day almost effortless. Phrases hardly ever get marked as a leech, while about 1 in every 10-20 words does.

I spend about an hour with anki spread throughout the day. And try to watch an hour of japanese anime/dorama/movies as well. While doing the dishes or cleaning I listen to the jpod101 podcasts.

It doesn't really go fast, they are all just babysteps. But taking these on daily base, I'm progressing in a steady pace while tackling material further ahead yet easily comprehensible from the point I'm at.
The fun part is adding a new sub2srs episode, with every new episode I add I can delete a larger part of it as already known.

Currently I'm on a katakana word spree, since I'm horrible at reading those.
And soon I'll start on some manga based decks, since I'm really bad at reading manga as well. The tiny kanji, up-down and right-left reading is giving me a headache even when it should be fairly easy to understand. So I'll use that as a way to ease into it.
Reply
#50
Grinkers Wrote:
blackmacros Wrote:amalgamation
ouch :o

btw, always interesting reading your (crazy) methods. Of course I mean crazy in a good, but crazy, way. Glad you're back!
Heh, thanks Wink

ruiner Wrote:How many do you put on minerals? When do you build your 4th pylon?
The answer is: a 7 pool rush of course.
Reply