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I just finished Rtk2 please congratulate me

#1
Yep those troublesome onyomis are history, it took about three months and soon it is time for rtk3. Sorry if this has been posted befor but I didn't see it anywhere and I think we need a thread to celebrate the passing of the Rtk2 milestone.
Edited: 2009-06-13, 9:26 am
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#2
Most people here aren't using RtK2. It isn't considered a good way of learning readings...
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#3
I reckon the pure groups and semipure groups were helpful and the rest was just brute memory but I still think it took a lot less time than it could have
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JapanesePod101
#4
Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:I just finished Rtk2...
Congratulations! Did you follow the book exactly? How many hours did it take (approx)? Is your Japanese level beginner? Intermediate? How are you dealing with the kun readings?
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#5
Yes, I think many of us tried out RTK2 then abandoned it after a certain time. I'm also interested in how MGC (Cool nick by the way) approached RTK2. My attempts using Trinity were an abysmal failure.
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#6
It is an interesting way of reviewing RTK1 and adding new compounds to your vocabulary using the kanji from the first book. I tried to create an image in my head of the meaning of new compounds in a similar way as what I did in RTK1.
上+人=saint
卵+巣=ovary
法+王= the Pope
Is it a good way of learning readings? I am not sure. I am not much into movies so I haven't tried the movie method. So far I haven't found any method other than the constant exposure to new compounds and watching for patterns. RTK2 is as good of a source as any. I liked the book.

As a side note: I haven't found that learning keyword to kanji automatically leads to remembering kanji to keyword as Heisig suggests in book one. If given the keyword, I can usually draw the kanji, but I often draw a blank when seeing the kanji and try to remember the meaning.
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#7
Congrats! I am approaching the end of RTK1 and am planning on Kanji town to study the onyomi readings. I have RTK2 and was going to read his reasoning and approach, but following the issues I have heard with it (Nukemarine et al.), I won't dive into RTK2.

That said, I am interested in hearing more details with your approach using RTK2.
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#8
Katsuo Wrote:
Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:I just finished Rtk2...
Congratulations! Did you follow the book exactly? How many hours did it take (approx)? Is your Japanese level beginner? Intermediate? How are you dealing with the kun readings?
I followed the book exactly although I went on an online dictionary to look for different keywords sometimes, as for the kun readings I just finished that chapter with the hundred kanji with no chinese readings and now I'm just picking up the kunyomis from my example sentances. I used anki to review the readings as well ( entered the flash cards mannually, which hurt like a bitch cause of all the typing and my Rsi ) I'd put my japanese level at about intermediate I can hold conversations and such and understand about 70% if what I hear, I've actually been learning for a while but at a snails pace as I'm doing it in highschool, It's only recently I discovered the amazing potential of the internet.
Edited: 2009-06-13, 7:17 pm
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#9
I have used the official Heisig flashcards for remembering RTK1 (in combination with Anki), and whenever I have seen a good combination I want to remember, I have simply formed a new story by combining two meanings. I already know a fair deal of the words in Japanese from RTK2, so it's just a matter of a new story. For example: 宿題 (しゅくだい) the topic that most people staying at the inn were focused on, was homework. (Must have been a lot of kids staying there) I thought of that image in a few seconds and haven't forgot it since. Therefore, call me silly, but I think I'm going to have an easier time with RTK2 than I have with RTK1.
Machine_Gun_Cat: If you've remembered every meaning from RTK2 in 3 months, then throw a freakin' party, you've managed to accomplish a ridiculously formidable task in approximately 2.08% of the time it would take a normal Japanese person to accomplish it. 3 months versus roughly 12 years of rote learning. Bravo.
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#10
Machine_Gun_Cat:
Yeah! Go us high school learners! I know of very few people who have been doing RTK in high school, so it's always nice to find a fellow student. I'm grade 11. I started learning Japanese when I was 11 years old out of self interest, and therefore advanced quite ahead of the school course. I'm doing year 12 Jap now, but it's unbearable, so far behind!
My teacher is a bit reluctant to teach me grammar beyond year 12, so I have taken to a rigorous extra-curricular schedule, and hope to be near 'fluency' by the end of the year. I plan to never reveal to my teacher the wonderful system of RTK, I found it by chance, so she can too. I think I can understand about 70% of conversation now also. "An Integrated Course to Intermediate Japanese" by the Japan Times has been a godsend, it was so in unison with my skill level, I could barely believe it. Did a month exchange a while back also, listening's easy now, just vocab needs improvement.
My other subjects have been greatly neglected due to my language passions (french also), as they should be. Anyway, I've babbled far too long and need to back to my final reviewing of RTK1 on Anki.
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#11
bodhisamaya Wrote:As a side note: I haven't found that learning keyword to kanji automatically leads to remembering kanji to keyword as Heisig suggests in book one. If given the keyword, I can usually draw the kanji, but I often draw a blank when seeing the kanji and try to remember the meaning.
I found that a little bit at first, but now find it pretty easy when doing the reverse way. Going from keyword to kanji certainly is the right method to use.
Edited: 2009-06-13, 11:45 pm
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#12
bodhisamaya Wrote:As a side note: I haven't found that learning keyword to kanji automatically leads to remembering kanji to keyword as Heisig suggests in book one. If given the keyword, I can usually draw the kanji, but I often draw a blank when seeing the kanji and try to remember the meaning.
I've always been a bit confused by this, since I've personally never had any trouble with it. Surely if you see 魚 then you can see that its made up of "bound up", "rice field" and "campfire" primitives because you're so used to the primitives by the end of RtK. That list of primitives should prompt the mental image you used in your mnemonic, which should then let you remember at least the gist of the meaning if not the exact keyword.

Would you mind clarifying a bit bodhisamaya? I'm curious if you can pinpoint a moment where the process I described above 'breaks down' for you and prevents you from going kanji-->keyword meaning.

EDIT: Machine Gun Cat, having now done RtK2, on reflection do you think it was worth the effort? You mention that you were an intermediate learner, so I imagine you would have already known a lot of the readings. Was it still worth it? Has it produced a significant jump in your ability to guess compound readings?
Edited: 2009-06-14, 12:18 am
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#13
thecite Wrote:Machine_Gun_Cat:
Yeah! Go us high school learners! I know of very few people who have been doing RTK in high school, so it's always nice to find a fellow student. I'm grade 11. I started learning Japanese when I was 11 years old out of self interest, and therefore advanced quite ahead of the school course. I'm doing year 12 Jap now, but it's unbearable, so far behind!
My teacher is a bit reluctant to teach me grammar beyond year 12, so I have taken to a rigorous extra-curricular schedule, and hope to be near 'fluency' by the end of the year. I plan to never reveal to my teacher the wonderful system of RTK, I found it by chance, so she can too. I think I can understand about 70% of conversation now also. "An Integrated Course to Intermediate Japanese" by the Japan Times has been a godsend, it was so in unison with my skill level, I could barely believe it. Did a month exchange a while back also, listening's easy now, just vocab needs improvement.
My other subjects have been greatly neglected due to my language passions (french also), as they should be. Anyway, I've babbled far too long and need to back to my final reviewing of RTK1 on Anki.
Thanks man, I plan on some pretty wild showing off to my japanese friends on monday Smile
but in all seriousness I hear you about the teachers being reluctant to teach structures beyond the scope of the school curriculum It's so annoying the thing should just be about how much japanese you know, I ussually try to chat up the Japanese girls in my class or get out my current Rtk book and cram in Kanji almost like a challenge like " ok I'm gonna do 30 readings and compounds before the end of the period, now if only the teacher would shut up so that I can concentrate :p." from what you've said though seems like you're quite alot better than me starting at 11 that's insane, a bravo right back at you man
Edited: 2009-06-14, 12:18 am
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#14
blackmacros Wrote:
bodhisamaya Wrote:As a side note: I haven't found that learning keyword to kanji automatically leads to remembering kanji to keyword as Heisig suggests in book one. If given the keyword, I can usually draw the kanji, but I often draw a blank when seeing the kanji and try to remember the meaning.
I've always been a bit confused by this, since I've personally never had any trouble with it. Surely if you see 魚 then you can see that its made up of "bound up", "rice field" and "campfire" primitives because you're so used to the primitives by the end of RtK. That list of primitives should prompt the mental image you used in your mnemonic, which should then let you remember at least the gist of the meaning if not the exact keyword.

Would you mind clarifying a bit bodhisamaya? I'm curious if you can pinpoint a moment where the process I described above 'breaks down' for you and prevents you from going kanji-->keyword meaning.

EDIT: Machine Gun Cat, having now done RtK2, on reflection do you think it was worth the effort? You mention that you were an intermediate learner, so I imagine you would have already known a lot of the readings. Was it still worth it? Has it produced a significant jump in your ability to guess compound readings?
I would say it was deffinately worth it because not only do you learn the readings which allows for rapid learning of vocabulary through the easy associations with meanings in what were once just random syllables but it also strengthens your already existing knowledge of the Kanji meanings, giving them a special nuance which makes guessing word meanings really easy
an example of what I mean:
actor:俳優
Actress:女優
While before I would have said "umm... kind women?"
now that I know the particular nuance of that Kanji from the first keyword the way that second compound works becomes a lot more transparent. So I would say It takes longer but is definitely worth it, I also kill two birds with one stone by using the memorization as an opportunity to add sentences.
Edited: 2009-06-14, 12:26 am
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#15
Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:
blackmacros Wrote:
bodhisamaya Wrote:As a side note: I haven't found that learning keyword to kanji automatically leads to remembering kanji to keyword as Heisig suggests in book one. If given the keyword, I can usually draw the kanji, but I often draw a blank when seeing the kanji and try to remember the meaning.
I've always been a bit confused by this, since I've personally never had any trouble with it. Surely if you see 魚 then you can see that its made up of "bound up", "rice field" and "campfire" primitives because you're so used to the primitives by the end of RtK. That list of primitives should prompt the mental image you used in your mnemonic, which should then let you remember at least the gist of the meaning if not the exact keyword.

Would you mind clarifying a bit bodhisamaya? I'm curious if you can pinpoint a moment where the process I described above 'breaks down' for you and prevents you from going kanji-->keyword meaning.

EDIT: Machine Gun Cat, having now done RtK2, on reflection do you think it was worth the effort? You mention that you were an intermediate learner, so I imagine you would have already known a lot of the readings. Was it still worth it? Has it produced a significant jump in your ability to guess compound readings?
I would say it was deffinately worth it because not only do you learn the readings which allows for rapid learning of vocabulary through the easy associations with meanings in what were once just random syllables but it also strengthens your already existing knowledge of the Kanji meanings, giving them a special nuance which makes guessing word meanings really easy
an example of what I mean:
actor:俳優
Actress:女優
While before I would have said "umm... kind women?"
now that I know the particular nuance of that Kanji from the first keyword the way that second compound works becomes a lot more transparent. So I would say It takes longer but is definitely worth it, I also kill two birds with one stone by using the memorization as an opportunity to add sentences.
Ah thanks. I'm constantly fluctuating between wanting to try an RtK2/KanjiChain/Town/Movie Method approach to memorising readings and thinking that its all too much effort. I can definitely see how it would make remembering vocab a lot easier, which is a large part of the reason I'm interested in it.

Although it seems that after the pure and semi-pure groups you're basically rote memorizing? So at that point its basically like doing KO2001 except you only get example compounds not sentences?
Edited: 2009-06-14, 12:47 am
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#16
Wouldn't it be possible to just look up sentence examples for RTK2 vocab? On yahoo!辞典 or something. Then you don't have to worry about studying words outside any context.
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#17
yukamina Wrote:Wouldn't it be possible to just look up sentence examples for RTK2 vocab? On yahoo!辞典 or something. Then you don't have to worry about studying words outside any context.
Thats exactly what I do using Denshi jisho
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#18
Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:
yukamina Wrote:Wouldn't it be possible to just look up sentence examples for RTK2 vocab? On yahoo!辞典 or something. Then you don't have to worry about studying words outside any context.
Thats exactly what I do using Denshi jisho
In case you haven't read it elsewhere, Denshi Jisho's is not a good source of example sentences.
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#19
vosmiura Wrote:
Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:
yukamina Wrote:Wouldn't it be possible to just look up sentence examples for RTK2 vocab? On yahoo!辞典 or something. Then you don't have to worry about studying words outside any context.
Thats exactly what I do using Denshi jisho
In case you haven't read it elsewhere, Denshi Jisho's is not a good source of example sentences.
Really? I was not aware of this, why is it a bad source of sentences?
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#20
Machine_Gun_Cat: I know how much of a pain it would be to have to type out all the RTK2 words manually for Anki, is it possible for you to me send the .anki file of your cards for RTK2? It would be greatly appreciated. I'll wait for you to reply before sorting out the sending method (email probably easiest).
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#21
You can get many of the sentences with transliteration and audio for RTK from http://Smart.fm

銃: 兵隊が銃をかまえていたよ
へいたい が じゅう を かまえていた よ 。
The soldier was holding the gun at the ready.
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#22
Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:Really? I was not aware of this, why is it a bad source of sentences?
They use the Tanaka corpus. The sentences were gathered by students of Japanese, and because of that many of them are not natural Japanese. Better to use natural sentences so you don't learn something the wrong way.
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#23
Congratulations!!
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#24
Thankyou armando amaya. I want everybody else who has finished Rtk2 to also post in this thread as well ( I meant to put "the" at the start of the thread title but forgot and can't edit it in now Sad )

and at thecite I'm sory I didn't see your request for my Anki file, I'll get onto trying to figure out how to send my anki files.
Edited: 2009-07-31, 11:08 pm
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#25
I finally finished Rtk2 completely (including kunyomi) today. I was at N3 level before I started, so I probably already knew at least a third of both sections, and had had some exposure to around half the content. Just guessing it probably took all up around 300 hours. I completed the book in order, start to finish, but was very strategic about it, using a uniquely considered approach for each chapter to fully harness the book's structure. While I wouldn't recommend Rtk2 for anyone lower than N3 level, and acknowledge there may be more efficient ways out there to get the same result.. the book works, does not do any damage, and if used well requires far less brute rote than it is given credit for.

Given any of the on or kun vocab in the book, I can now output its reading and meaning. And, given any kanji in the book, I can reel off all its onyomi in order of frequency. Of course like for Rtk1 it requires ongoing review and accuracy immediately after completion is at about 85%. I don't regret it. In fact I feel pretty good. One day I would like to write a step-by-step guide for how best to work through this poorly understood book.
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