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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread

Context would help. "throughout the ages" is probably not a bad default for いつの世も but you wouldn't necessarily always want that. For instance in this sentence I found via google: いつの世も、英語教育論争は絶えることがなく、英語教育改革の必要性が叫ばれてきましたが、いまだ遅々として進んでいないというのが現状のようです。"through the ages" sounds a bit silly given that the subject is English teaching in Japan, and you might end up just using "always"...

いつの世までも I guess I'd go with "eternally".

世 has two relevant meanings here: (1) a (historical)age/epoch/period and (2) the religious/spiritual one: この世 this world あの世 the next world 前の世 a former life/existence. I feel like いつの世までも probably has a lot of the latter flavour to it where いつの世も is closer to a fixed phrase that is literally speaking meaning (1) and sometimes just an idiom for "always" in the sense of stating an eternal truth. I'm not totally sure about this though.
Edited: 2017-12-17, 4:13 pm
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(2017-12-17, 4:12 pm)pm215 Wrote: Context would help. "throughout the ages" is probably not a bad default for いつの世も but you wouldn't necessarily always want that. For instance in this sentence I found via google: いつの世も、英語教育論争は絶えることがなく、英語教育改革の必要性が叫ばれてきましたが、いまだ遅々として進んでいないというのが現状のようです。"through the ages" sounds a bit silly given that the subject is English teaching in Japan, and you might end up just using "always"...

いつの世までも I guess I'd go with "eternally".

世 has two relevant meanings here: (1) a (historical)age/epoch/period and (2) the religious/spiritual one: この世 this world あの世 the next world 前の世 a former life/existence. I feel like いつの世までも probably has a lot of the latter flavour to it where いつの世も is closer to a fixed phrase that is literally speaking meaning (1) and sometimes just an idiom for "always" in the sense of stating an eternal truth. I'm not totally sure about this though.

Thank you. I can give you context for the first one - which I was looking for initially. The second one I just happened to find while trying to google for the first one.

いつの世も、女性は他人の噂話が大好きなんです。
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Yeah, that's the 'always'/'in every age' meaning -- presenting the idea of the gossipy woman as an unchanging thing in any time or place. I'm terrible at thinking of the ideal English phrase, but hopefully you understand the meaning.
Edited: 2017-12-17, 5:48 pm
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JapanesePod101
(2017-12-17, 5:47 pm)pm215 Wrote: Yeah, that's the 'always'/'in every age' meaning -- presenting the idea of the gossipy woman as an unchanging thing in any time or place. I'm terrible at thinking of the ideal English phrase, but hopefully you understand the meaning.

Yeah, we have very similar adage in my language too. Thank you very much for your help.
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Maybe it's oversimplifying things but I like to think that
いつ◯◯も=always
いつ◯◯までも=forever
and whatever goes inbetween gives a hint about frequency. So here 世 goes for every generation.
In the same pattern, I've already seen いつの日も (always (and everyday)) and いつの日までも (forever (and everyday)).
But mostly used in lyrics.
Like pm215 said, I think they're mostly set phrases, maybe used in a poetic way instead of the plain version いつも・いつまでも or to describe historical facts or some kind of general truth in a kind of formal way.
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Usually I don't have any problems with causative/giving-receiving/etc verb combinations, but this one I ran across in a Yoshimoto Banana story threw me:

The context here is that the narrator says that when she was young, she used to bottle up her tears, and when it all got too much she'd go down to the river on her own and have a good cry.
泣くとしばらくは大丈夫になって、祖父や祖母や父を笑わせてあげられるぐらいには陽気な娘になることはできた。

Had to stop and think about that to figure out who exactly was doing what to who, and I'm still not 100% certain. I put my view under a spoiler tag so the rest of you can have the fun of doing similar (or of being smug that you didn't need to) :-)

"...was able to become a cheerful enough girl that I could make my grandfather and my grandmother and my father smile", I think.

...huh, I thought we had spoiler tags here but apparently not. Have some white-on-white text instead (highlight to read, probably).
Edited: 2018-01-06, 3:03 pm
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(2018-01-06, 3:01 pm)pm215 Wrote: Usually I don't have any problems with causative/giving-receiving/etc verb combinations, but this one I ran across in a Yoshimoto Banana story threw me:

The context here is that the narrator says that when she was young, she used to bottle up her tears, and when it all got too much she'd go down to the river on her own and have a good cry.
泣くとしばらくは大丈夫になって、祖父や祖母や父を笑わせてあげられるぐらいには陽気な娘になることはできた。

Had to stop and think about that to figure out who exactly was doing what to who, and I'm still not 100% certain. I put my view under a spoiler tag so the rest of you can have the fun of doing similar (or of being smug that you didn't need to) :-)

"...was able to become a cheerful enough girl that I could make my grandfather and my grandmother and my father smile", I think.

...huh, I thought we had spoiler tags here but apparently not. Have some white-on-white text instead (highlight to read, probably).
After I cry I will be ok for a while and can be the cheerful girl again, that is able to put a smile on the faces of mine grandfather.grandmother and father.
My take on it, I think you are correct I just put it in some other words, sorry for my jacked up English haha.\


That was a fun sentence haha Tongue Above is my take on it, also colored the text white.
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I think you got it right.
Was a bit thrown off by the あげられる on first read, but if it's the potential form, you can pretty much ignore it. The rest is rather straight forward I guess.
And I guess the mother died in a terrible death bitten by an ant...
Thanks for providing the mini-challenge, it was fun. : )
Edited: 2018-01-07, 7:30 am
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