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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread

(2017-10-15, 10:22 pm)learningkanji Wrote: I was talking to a Japanese friend when they showed me this sentence: You shouldn't have to beg someone to care.

I tried translating it to Japanese but it was pretty difficult. You shouldn't have to was the hardest part. This was the best I could do:

誰かに気にしてもらうのを頼むのは要らないべきだ

Does anyone know how to translate that?

Perhaps use "hazunai" to express something not being as it is supposed to be? Which is fairly close to "you shouldn't have to". (My IME conked out, so no hiragana at the moment...)
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I also think はず is more approriate in that case.
べき is more about telling people what is right to do and what's not, what must or must not be done.
That sentence is just saying that something is not expected to be done, that's not normal to happen.

I would translate it more like that:
構ってほしいのならお願いするはずがない。

気にする also works but I feel like 構う has a more affectionate meaning.
~てもらいたい instead of ~てほしい is also an option.
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Too busy to write much, but I thought I might post what Eijiro translates "shouldn't have to" as:

Shouldn't have to
〜しなきゃいけないなんておかしい◆【直訳】〜しなければならないという状況があるべきではない
・Your husband shouldn't have to carry the washing to the laundry before going to work. ご主人が仕事前に洗濯物をクリーニング屋に持って行かなきゃいけないなんておかしいわ。
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JapanesePod101
Maybe another possible alternative base on what was said above:
~したら普通じゃない
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Hi, new to this forum but not to koohii.com. Anyway, a while ago I got a character book for a manga as a present, and I started reading through the different profiles and snippets of text, despite my limited vocabulary and grammar knowledge... It's slow, but I usually manage to figure things out, and learn more. Until now. This part just makes my head hurt and I don't even know how to unravel it.  Huh Can anyone here just help me with telling me what it means in English, and I'll try to figure out what I'm missing and attack those holes in my knowledge. Thanks!  Smile

大原野は見た目と物静かさがウケてるため、彼のことをなにも知らない 話したこともない子にモテる(知ってる人はあまり寄り付かない)。
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Some hints for unravelling the grammar:
彼のことをなにも知らない 話したこともない all modifies 子.
見た目と物静かさがウケてる is all a subordinate clause under ため, indicating the reason for the main sentence (大原野は...X子にモテる)
ウケてる I had to look up, but it is from this sense of ウケる: "(11) (uk) (esp. ウケる, うける) to be well-received; to become popular; to go down well"
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(2017-11-09, 3:52 pm)pm215 Wrote: Some hints for unravelling the grammar:
彼のことをなにも知らない 話したこともない all modifies 子.
見た目と物静かさがウケてる is all a subordinate clause under ため, indicating the reason for the main sentence (大原野は...X子にモテる)
ウケてる I had to look up, but it is from this sense of ウケる: "(11) (uk) (esp. ウケる, うける) to be well-received; to become popular; to go down well"

Thank you for the kind reply! I guess I'll have to set he book aside for a while though, while diving into subordinate clauses. Tongue Also, thanks for pointing out just how much is modifying 子. I didn't realize that.
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Thanks for clearing up shouldn't have to. Sometimes I come across sentences where より is at the beginning of a sentence and I'm not too sure what it means. I see it quite often but the only example I can remember is:

より多くステージに立つのは

Also I see stuff like something...じゃねい like:

指すんじゃねい

Which I can figure out that means don't point but じゃねい means じゃない so 指すんじゃねい is 指すんじゃない which means it's not that I will point? So why does something...じゃねい mean something...ないで like 指さわないで?
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When a sentence starts with より it usually means more than now, or more than up to a point. Just imagine an 今 before it and it makes sense. I is usually used quantitatively (going on even more stages, in your case).

じゃねぇー is a slangy way to say じゃない in my area. I haven't seen it spelled like that yet but I can see it happening Smile
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(2017-11-10, 9:54 pm)learningkanji Wrote: Thanks for clearing up shouldn't have to. Sometimes I come across sentences where より is at the beginning of a sentence and I'm not too sure what it means. I see it quite often but the only example I can remember is:

より多くステージに立つのは
It doesn't have to be at the start of the sentences, but より without something to compare with is just like 'more...' in English without a 'than...' explicitly saying what you're comparing with. It's less common than doing that in English so over using it can sound like translationese, but its not that uncommon.

より安全な社会の構築が復興のカギ constructing a safer society is the key to revival (Google search)
どっちがより変態なのか調べてみた we investigated who was the more perverted (Youtube search)
国際社会の連帯をより強固なものとするため in order to make the bonds of international society stronger (Abe speech)
どっちがよりクリーチャーを作れるか who can make more creatures (Google search) (no adj or adv!)

Quote:Also I see stuff like something...じゃねい like:

指すんじゃねい

Which I can figure out that means don't point but じゃねい means じゃない so 指すんじゃねい is 指すんじゃない which means it's not that I will point? So why does something...じゃねい mean something...ないで like 指さわないで?
yeah it is slang for じゃない。like Zgarbas i can't remember the last time i saw it with that spelling. more common spelling include じゃねえ じゃねー じゃねぇ...

~するんじゃない can be a negative imperative like ~するな (not just "it's not that I will point")
that's just another construction you gotta learn.

https://youtu.be/vvepe04Dbh4?t=12s
another example is at the start of the video for this popular song at 0:12
さわんじゃねぇよ、おめぇ女かよ。(触るんじゃないよ、お前女かよ)Don't touch me! What are you, a girl?
Edited: 2017-11-11, 12:07 am
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I see, I think I just spelled it wrong. Anyways thanks.
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Using the helpful clues I got here about the grammar of this sentence that gave me such a headache, I think maybe I have some understanding of it?

大原野は見た目と物静かさがウケてるため、彼のことをなにも知らない 話したこともない子にモテる(知ってる人はあまり寄り付かない)。

Because [his] appearance and quietness is well-received/well-liked, Ooharano attracts girls who know nothing about him [and] haven't even talked [to him] (people who know [him] don't approach [him]).

Is that somewhere close to what it means?
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@whisper

Include the あまり in some way and I think you've got it perfect
Edited: 2017-11-13, 7:01 pm by ファブリス
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Thank you!  Smile (I really shouldn't try reading stuff more advanced than my level, but where's the fun in that? Got to keep myself motivated to learn more, right? Big Grin )
Edited: 2017-11-13, 7:02 pm by ファブリス
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彼女は瞬きして涙止めようとした。

What is the purpose of, "と" in this sentence after, "止めよう"?  Is it referring to, "as soon as"? So, "As soon as she blinked, the tears stopped" ?

[quote pid='247953' dateline='1510600676']
Thank you!  Smile (I really shouldn't try reading stuff more advanced than my level, but where's the fun in that? Got to keep myself motivated to learn more, right? Big Grin )[/quote]

Lol I do the same thing
Edited: 2017-11-17, 11:29 pm
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@cattastic

volitional form (~う、~よう)+とする = try/attempt to do something
彼女は瞬きして涙止めようとした。 (btw there's probably an を missing after 涙)
'She blinked and tried to stop her tears'

Couple more examples with する in different forms:

ドアが閉まっていて、全力で開けようとしてもビクともしない。
'The door is closed and won't budge even when I try to open it with my full force.'

夫婦関係でも自分の正しさを主張し、相手を変えようとすれば、たとえ相手をうまく説得できたとしても、相手の中には我慢や反発が生まれ、互いへの信頼や安心感は壊れていきます。(出典:http://www.mag2.com/p/news/330557)
'In marriages too, if you assert your own correctness and try to change the other person, even if you manage to convince them, they will feel that they are having to put up with something or want to rebel against you, and your trust and feelings of reassurance in each other will start to crumble.'
Edited: 2017-11-19, 7:32 am
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(2017-11-18, 5:03 am)Ash_S Wrote: @cattastic

volitional form (~う、~よう)+とする = try/attempt to do something
彼女は瞬きして涙止めようとした。 (btw there's probably an を missing after 涙)
'She blinked and tried to stop her tears'

Couple more examples with する in different forms:

ドアが閉まっていて、全力で開けようとしてもビクともしない。
'The door is closed won't budge even when I try to open it with my full force.'

夫婦関係でも自分の正しさを主張し、相手を変えようとすれば、たとえ相手をうまく説得できたとしても、相手の中には我慢や反発が生まれ、互いへの信頼や安心感は壊れていきます。(出典:http://www.mag2.com/p/news/330557)
'In marriages too, if you assert your own correctness and try to change the other person, even if you manage to convince them, they will feel that they are having to put up with something or want to rebel against you, and your trust and feelings of reassurance in each other will start to crumble.'

Okay...wow. This is incredibly helpful. Thank you so much.

If there's an を missing after 涙, do you think it'd make a big difference? I put this sentence up on HiNative and 3 people rated it as natural. Or they were just being nice Angel lol

(2017-11-13, 2:17 pm)whisper Wrote: Thank you!  Smile (I really shouldn't try reading stuff more advanced than my level, but where's the fun in that? Got to keep myself motivated to learn more, right? Big Grin )

Aaand apparently I don't know how to quote. Anyways, yeah, I do this too. Tongue
Edited: 2017-11-18, 9:35 am
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(2017-11-18, 9:32 am)cattastic Wrote: If there's an を missing after 涙, do you think it'd make a big difference? I put this sentence up on HiNative and 3 people rated it as natural. Or they were just being nice Angel lol

It's not a big deal. Just, skipping particles is most common in colloquial language, right? Whereas the whole thing from 彼女は~ sounds like it should be from a novel or something.
Edited: 2017-11-18, 10:50 pm
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Meh...yeah, I consider myself a beginner still. I struggle with colloquial language. Like in music.

This song by Hiromi Uehara, titled, "Honesty" has no translation as far as I can tell, so I've been trying to do it myself...even though I think I'm pretty terrible at this and rarely translate anything right. One line in particular interests me, though.

First off, the previous line for context: "今年の夏も守れなかった遊びの約束"

My translation: "You haven't kept your promise this summer to hang out"

The next line: "履かないままの新作のサンダル 見ると包まれる儚い感覚"

My translation: "I don't wear my brand new sandals, I watch them so I am wrapped up in a fleeting sensation"

I am struggling with this section: "ままの新作のサンダル"

I'm guessing "まま" in this context means something along the lines of "as it is", or "as the sandals are". If I'm right on that, then I still don't understand what kind of emphasis in particular this places upon the subject. The closest translation I could think of is, "brand" new?

"新作" means, "new work, new production", and I wonder why she chose, "新作" as opposed to...say, 新しい". Like, what kind of flavor is she trying to get across?

Last but not least, this section: "見ると包まれる儚い感覚"

Does, "と" make this a conditional phrase? So...because she would watch the sandals, she would become wrapped up in a fleeting sensation? This makes sense to me at least. Not sure though. I know I should probably be working on a song that already has translations if I'm a beginner, but eh I like the song lol
Edited: 2017-11-23, 6:15 pm
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(2017-11-23, 6:12 pm)cattastic Wrote: Meh...yeah, I consider myself a beginner still. I struggle with colloquial language. Like in music.

This song by Hiromi Uehara, titled, "Honesty" has no translation as far as I can tell, so I've been trying to do it myself...even though I think I'm pretty terrible at this and rarely translate anything right. One line in particular interests me, though.
IMHO song lyrics are one of the hardest things to translate, because they're a kind of poetry -- they have elliptical references, unusual word orders, vocabulary or phrasing choices for the sake of the rhythm, lines that are just phrases or fragments rather than full sentences, and if you do a 'get the meaning across' translation it loses half the impact...
Quote:First off, the previous line for context: "今年の夏も守れなかった遊びの約束"

My translation: "You haven't kept your promise this summer to hang out"

The next line: "履かないままの新作のサンダル 見ると包まれる儚い感覚"

My translation: "I don't wear my brand new sandals, I watch them so I am wrapped up in a fleeting sensation"
One thing I notice here is that you're not being faithful to the grammatical structure of the original. In the first line the whole thing is a noun phrase with 約束 at the head, so it's more like "the promise to hang out that you didn't keep this year either" (and note that も...) And the second one also is a noun phrase. You've turned both of them into full sentences with verbs.

Quote:I am struggling with this section: "ままの新作のサンダル"

I'm guessing "まま" in this context means something along the lines of "as it is", or "as the sandals are". If I'm right on that, then I still don't understand what kind of emphasis in particular this places upon the subject. The closest translation I could think of is, "brand" new?
履かないまま is "never worn", "still not worn", still in the state of not having been put on. (The grammar pattern of [verb-phrase] + まま to mean "still verbed" or for a negative verb form "still not verbed" is very common -- check your favourite grammar reference for examples. If you're trying to parse a sentence it's almost certain that the verb phrase before まま binds to it.)
Quote:"新作" means, "new work, new production", and I wonder why she chose, "新作"  as opposed to...say, 新しい". Like, what kind of flavor is she trying to get across?
If you look at the ALC search results for the word there are a bunch of phrases using it in the sense of a new fashion collection, so these sandals are this year's hot new look, not just a new pair of cheap flipflops.
Quote:Last but not least, this section: "見ると包まれる儚い感覚

Does, "と" make this a conditional phrase? So...because she would watch the sandals, she would become wrapped up in a fleeting sensation?
It's "when", not "if" -- 'the fleeting sensation that I get wrapped up in when I look at the new sandals I never wore'.
(I suspect that 'fleeting sensation' here is not the right translation here, but I'm not sure what the right meaning is.)
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Hi folks!

Long time lurker, first time poster. Thanks for making this forum the nice place it is. ^^

I'm here to ask on behalf of a friend who doesn't speak English. My friend wants to know if she understood a Japanese passage correctly. So, she translated it into Arabic, and I translated her translation into English.

これは中国の古典を古い日本語で読むという日本独特の読み方です。外国人日本語学習者の方が読めないのは当然のことです。現代日本語に訳してみます。

体と髪の毛と皮膚は父親と母親から貰ったもので、決して傷付けないのが孝(父母や先祖を敬うこと)の初めである。自立して道義にかなった行いをし、自分の名誉を後の時代にまで高め、それによって自分の父母の名も人びとに明らかになるのが孝の終わりである。

とても訳せましょうか。タトゥーやピアスを入れるのは中国の伝統的価値観では父母に対する反逆で最低最悪の行為だということです。

This is a special reading method for Japanese, which is to read an old Chinese book using Old Japanese. As for the difficulty of reading it for foreign learners of Japanese, that is undoubted (natural). I will try to translate it to Modern Japanese.

The body, hair, and skin are things we inherited from our parents, and not hurting them about it is the basis of honoring parents. As for acting in accordance with morals independently, and boosting your honor/prestige in your future (lit. until a later time), and then the prominence of your parents' name before people (for what you did), that is considered the end of your honoring them. (does that mean you did what you had to do?)

Can I translate this well?
The tattoos you put, and the ear piercings are, in the traditional Chinese view, a bad lowly behavior. It is against the parents' well (considered disobedient and treacherous).

-------------------------

I know this isn't a very fluid translation, but I tried to preserve my friend's understanding of the text as much as possible. Please give any corrections or explanations you find useful.
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(2017-11-26, 10:16 am)Samer Wrote: I'm here to ask on behalf of a friend who doesn't speak English. My friend wants to know if she understood a Japanese passage correctly. So, she translated it into Arabic, and I translated her translation into English.
Hmm, and I guess you're going to have to translate comments back into Arabic... It mostly seems pretty close, especially allowing for the round trip via Arabic; there is only one error that I think really significant to understanding the meaning, which is the object for "to hurt/damage" in para 2.
Quote:これは中国の古典を古い日本語で読むという日本独特の読み方です。外国人日本語学習者の方が読めないのは当然のことです。現代日本語に訳してみます。
This is a special reading method for Japanese, which is to read an old Chinese book using Old Japanese. As for the difficulty of reading it for foreign learners of Japanese, that is undoubted (natural). I will try to translate it to Modern Japanese.
"a reading method peculiar to Japan" (ie to Japan the place, not Japanese the language). "old Japanese" lower case -- this is just plain adjective 'old', not the technical term for the form of the language which in English is named Old Japanese .
読めない means "cannot read", not merely that it's difficult, so  "It is natural that foreign learners of Japanese would be unable to read it."

Side note: this sounds like it's a reference to Kanbun which I wouldn't expect most Japanese people to be able to read raw. It may have come with the transcription into classical Japanese, which probably most Japanese can read and non-native learners can puzzle out with some experience.
Quote:体と髪の毛と皮膚は父親と母親から貰ったもので、決して傷付けないのが孝(父母や先祖を敬うこと)の初めである。自立して道義にかなった行いをし、自分の名誉を後の時代にまで高め、それによって自分の父母の名も人びとに明らかになるのが孝の終わりである。
The body, hair, and skin are things we inherited from our parents, and not hurting them about it is the basis of honoring parents. As for acting in accordance with morals independently, and boosting your honor/prestige in your future (lit. until a later time), and then the prominence of your parents' name before people (for what you did), that is considered the end of your honoring them. (does that mean you did what you had to do?)
The thing not being hurt (damaged) is the body/hair/skin (the point is that damaging these gifts from your parents is not respectful to your parents).
"is the start of honouring one's parents" -- the word choice here is a deliberate contrast with the one at the end of the second sentence . 初め start vs 終わり end, though in English 'end' implies stopping and the Japanese here doesn't mean that in a bad way.
"To become independent and act in a moral way", not to independently act. て makes a looser link between clauses, it's not the first clause adverbially modifying the second.
"それによって" means that the means by which you increase the prominence of your parents' name is through the acts in the preceding clauses (acting morally and increasing your own honour).
Quote:とても訳せましょうか。タトゥーやピアスを入れるのは中国の伝統的価値観では父母に対する反逆で最低最悪の行為だということです。

Can I translate this well?
The tattoos you put, and the ear piercings are, in the traditional Chinese view, a bad lowly behavior. It is against the parents' well (considered disobedient and treacherous).
I suspect とても of being a typo for とでも, which would make that first bit "we could translate it something like [the above text]" (Japanese being verb-at-end this sentence-fragment remark fits naturally after the text it talks about, whereas English would put the remark first.)
"Tattoos or ear piercings are" -- there is no "you" here, this is just the abstract concept of getting one's ear pierced, not something any specific person has done.
"父母に対する反逆で最低最悪の行為だ" I would translate as "rebelling against one's parents and the worst possible behaviour".

Edit: it would be interesting to see the original (kanbun?) text which prompted this conversation, just for curiosity. (Not that I expect to be able to read it!)
Edited: 2017-11-26, 5:06 pm
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(2017-11-26, 5:02 pm)pm215 Wrote: Edit: it would be interesting to see the original (kanbun?) text which prompted this conversation, just for curiosity. (Not that I expect to be able to read it!)

Thanks a lot, pm215, we appreciate it. ^^

I don't know if it's kanbun or not but this is the original:

入れ墨やピアス、体にどのくらいいれてる?

身体髪膚これを父母に受く、敢へて毀傷せざるは、孝の始めなり。身を立て道を行ひ、名を後世に揚げ、以て父母を顕はすは、孝の終りなり。
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(2017-12-01, 9:05 pm)Samer Wrote: I don't know if it's kanbun or not but this is the original:

身体髪膚これを父母に受く、敢へて毀傷せざるは、孝の始めなり。身を立て道を行ひ、名を後世に揚げ、以て父母を顕はすは、孝の終りなり。

That's what pm215 called the 'transcription into classical japanese' (書き下し文)
Here's the original kanbun/classical chinese it comes from
身體髪膚。受之父母。不敢毀傷。孝之始也。立身行道。揚名於後世。以顕父母。孝之終也
(出典: http://www.kokin.rr-livelife.net/classic...l_287.html
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いつの世も
いつの世までも

Please help me out with these, I just don't get it Sad .

いつの世も -> Something like 'since the beginning of time' ?
いつの世までも -> 'till the end of time' ?
Edited: 2017-12-17, 2:52 pm
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