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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread

(2017-08-04, 5:35 pm)tanaquil Wrote: agete confused me a little when I read your example as well, but my guess is that you're doing Tarou a favor by letting him try it. "yarasete ageru" = "I'll let you try it" (I'm doing you a favor); "yarasete agete kudasai" = "Please let him try it."

The yaru being used here is do, not give. I'm not sure if these are actually considered separate verbs, or just different meanings of the same verb, but yaru when it doesn't mean give doesn't imply anything about relative status. It only implies relative status when it's in sentences like "I'll give the dog food" or in a -te yaru combination. I think "yarasete kudasai" or "yarasete kuremasen ka" (let me take care of that) to a boss would be entirely appropriate.

Someone else might have a better answer, though. Even after reading Rubin's excellent explanation, I still fumble this often, especially in the more complex variations.

You may well be right about yaru not meaning "to give with little or no respect" here but simply "to do". Since Rubin chose to render the Japanese example sentence entirely in romaji, there's no way to tell if he means plain やる i.e. "to give" or 遣る i.e. "to do". (Edit: it turns out 遣る can both mean "to give to someone of equal or lower rank" or indeed simply "to do". Apparently this is one of those kanji that generally gets written in kana.) Still, two of the  other four examples Rubin provides on said page do provide some circumstantial evidence that plain やる is meant here. Specifically:

いたいめにあわせて やった= "I gave him the causing of meeting up with a painful experience"= "I kicked his butt."
かかせてやった = "I (showed him whose boss and) made him write it."

Both seem to use やる to underline the inferior position of the person undergoing the action. Rubin also remarks in general about his examples on page 59: "Notice that they suggest situations of dominance or familiarity."

Then again, maybe the sentence in question is more an example of familiarity than of dominance.

(Edit: in the section immediately folllowing the one I quoted from, Rubin also uses やる in the sense of "to do" when quoting an angry outburst towards a Sicilian innkeeper. Of course, why a Sicilian innkeeper would understand Japanese in the first place is the greater mystery in that section...  Confused )

(2017-08-04, 5:48 pm)phil321 Wrote: Maybe the following from another book will help:

-te ageru:  perform an action for the benefit of somebody else, e.g.:
 
Haha ni atarasii boosi o katte agemasita. I bought my mother a new hat.
 
Kutu o migaite agemasyoo ka. Shall I polish your shoes for you?
 
-te kureru:  perform an action for the benefit of the
 
speaker, or somebody that the speaker considers as in his
 
group, e.g.:
 
Eigo no zibiki o kasite kuremasita. He lent me an English dictionary.
 
Hi o tukete kuremasen ka. Won't you please set fire to it?

I'm aware of the -te ageru / -te kureru forms and how they indicate performing something for someone's benefit.

One of the problems I had with the sentence I quoted, is that it seemed to multiply the meaning of "allowing/letting someone (to) do something" by using both the causative in the te-form (which in itself is already a request to make someone do something) and an extra "to give" in the form of あげて and yet another request in the form of くださ. The solution that Tanaquil suggested seems to clear up the confusion, with やらせて no longer being based on やる (to give) but on 遣る (to do), since then やらせて would no longer include the meaning "to give" so that it might make sense to add this meaning with あげて.
Edited: 2017-08-05, 10:24 am
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Quote:Since Rubin chose to render the Japanese example sentence entirely in romaji, there's no way to tell if he means plain やる i.e. "to give" or 遣る i.e. "to do".
If he'd spoken the sentence out loud (as the hypothetical speaker of the example would be doing) then you wouldn't be able to tell from choice of written form either; and using kanji for やる in either sense is not common at all in my experience.

You can tell this isn't the "to give" sense because (1) it doesn't fit at all, short of perhaps contrived situations where you're asking "please let Tarou feed the ducks" or something and (2) やらせてあげる, やらせてくれる, etc etc are very common ways to say "let him", "let me", etc.
(You can see やる used in its 'give' meaning in sentences like this, where you can tell it's that because of the direct object:
私が幼い頃、近所の方が大きな壺を何個もお庭に置いて、メダカをたくさん飼っていて、エサをやらせてもらった事がありました。)

Of course Rubin is deliberately throwing you not-easy-to-comprehend sentences here; not that it's unnatural, but it's the kind of sentence that gives you no clues if you don't know the grammar and the common phrasings it's using.
Edited: 2017-08-05, 11:29 am
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Hi, can someone help me parse this sentence please? 

アンケーとをとろうかなあ

Using google translate I get "let's take a survey".

But what is the verb, and what is the ka and na for?  Thanks.
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(2017-08-19, 8:06 pm)phil321 Wrote: Hi, can someone help me parse this sentence please? 

アンケーとをとろうかなあ

Using google translate I get "let's take a survey".

But what is the verb, and what is the ka and na for?  Thanks.

かなあ (or any variation that makes you say the same thing かな~ かなぁ etc)is kind of like "I wonder if". If you listen to someone say it, it'll make more sense than trying to explain it. It doesn't neccesarily neccesitate an answer or just sounds a little softer than plain old か.

And the verb is 取る とる take
Edited: 2017-08-19, 8:22 pm
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(2017-08-19, 8:21 pm)sholum Wrote:
(2017-08-19, 8:06 pm)phil321 Wrote: Hi, can someone help me parse this sentence please? 

アンケーとをとろうかなあ

Using google translate I get "let's take a survey".

But what is the verb, and what is the ka and na for?  Thanks.

かなあ (or any variation that makes you say the same thing かな~ かなぁ etc)is kind of like "I wonder if". If you listen to someone say it, it'll make more sense than trying to explain it. It doesn't neccesarily neccesitate an answer or just sounds a little softer than plain old か.

And the verb is 取る とる take
Something's still missing though: the kana is actually (in romaji): o toro u ka na a. I don't think the verb is "toru". Maybe the word is "torou" = waste of time? Thanks. Or maybe just a typo in the textbook.
Edited: 2017-08-19, 8:33 pm
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"アンケート" is the direct object of a verb, so I agree with ”とる" as being the verb "to take". "取ろう" would be the volitional.
Edited: 2017-08-19, 9:00 pm
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"I'm wondering if I wanna answer a questionairre."
"I'm thinking about answering a questionairre."
"Not sure but I might answer a questionairre."
"I'm gonna answer a questionairre."

It's the verb 取る like he said. That's just the verb we use with アンケート. Like 'take a survey'.

Volitional form + かな(あ) basically expresses what you're thinking about doing.
Edited: 2017-08-19, 9:09 pm
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(2017-08-19, 9:08 pm)Ash_S Wrote: "I'm wondering if I wanna answer a questionairre."
"I'm thinking about answering a questionairre."
"Not sure but I might answer a questionairre."
"I'm gonna answer a questionairre."

It's the verb 取る like he said. That's just the verb we use with アンケート. Like 'take a survey'.

Volitional form + かな(あ) basically expresses what you're thinking about doing.

Ooooooohhhhhh [slapping forehead].  I see it now:

Anketto o toroo ka na a

where toroo is the "-OO" form of "toru".  (Torou = toroo).

Thanks all.
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It's never written -oo (or おお) though, so the '-OO form' is a bit of an odd way to think about it.

PS: アンケート is 'ankeito' or maybe 'ankeeto' or 'anke-to', not 'anketto' -- long vowel, not glottal stop. (If you were wondering what the heck this katakana word is derived from, it's one of the handful that trips up English speakers by being from a different Western language, in this case French enquête.)
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