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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread

(2017-02-24, 9:31 pm)learningkanji Wrote: After going through core for a while now I'm trying to distinguish words that seem very similar to me that might have different nuances. If you guys can kinda help explain the slight differences between any of these, it would help, thanks.

業績 実績、
交換 変更 変換 変化、
割合 割合に 割に、
衣料 衣服 衣類 服装、
他方 向こう 向かい、
成立 創立 確立 設立、
行為 行動、
行事 催し、
朗らか 軽快 陽気、
理屈 理論 原理、
浮く 浮かべる 浮かぶ、
実に 正に 誠に、
要請 要求、
一遍に 一斉に、
不満 不平

Using a monolingual dictionary such as the one at https://kotobank.jp helps a lot in cases like these. If you can't read them yet, use Rikai/Yomichan, etc to help you, because the definitions are really useful.
Edited: 2017-02-24, 10:29 pm
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(2017-02-24, 9:54 pm)risu_ Wrote: You'll gradually come to understand and remember them when you read more. Even if I typed out the nuances in every single word that you posted, I doubt that you would remember even half of them.
I find weblio's sentence search to be a pretty good way to quickly get up to speed on how a sentence is actually used.

http://ejje.weblio.jp/sentence/content/%...D%E3%81%AB
http://ejje.weblio.jp/sentence/content/%...9%E3%81%AB

The Shogakukan progressive dictionary (used by yahoo and goo) often has example sentences as well:
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/je/65696/mea...%E8%A3%85/
and even when it doesn't, the related compound words may give a pretty good idea what kind of meaning it has,
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/en/%E8%...96%99/m0u/

Space-ALC is another one, a bit ad heavy though,
http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=%e6%88%90%e7%ab%8b&ref=sa
http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=%e5%89%b5%e7%ab%8b

And of course, Tatoeba,

http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/search?...4%E6%8F%9B
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentences/search?...jpn&to=eng


Most of the words you listed don't even have remotely the same meaning and only look that way if you're looking only at the EDICT glosses and not taking the time to  a) pay attention to the part of speech, b) note the fact that the glosses that differ that suggest what the overall meaning is, or c) look in other dictionaries or at sentence databases like the ones above.

Personally, I would never even start reviewing a word without looking up example sentences to get an idea of how its used. Of course I also put an example sentence on every vocab card so I guess that's a given.

I don't think a monolingual dictionary is all that helpful in cases where the words actually have very similar meanings, although it will quickly distinguish words that have drastically different meanings. I still prefer J-E dictionaries because I find example sentences extremely important and J-J dictionaries have a horrible habit of taking their example sentences from classical literature. I'm looking for the driest, most mundane, most boring example... that is to say something concise, clear, and completely practical. The actual books I'm reading can be colorful and filled with cultural allusions, dictionary sentences should be painfully dull and absolutely straight to the point with no messing around.
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These words are from core 2k6 and they have example sentences. I find that when I have to remember the word based on the sentence I always think of multiple similar words or the wrong similar looking one and when I see English examples the words often seem interchangeable.
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Hello, I'm quite new and found this marvelous place so I just came in with a doubt(?)

-おまえみたいに行き遅れたらどにもならんしな
How rude is saying this to someone who haven't married yet? What is it assuming anyway? It's a father talking to his daughter btw, they were talking about marriage. This is what he said before that:
-そういうこともあるかもなって話になっただけだ

p-please
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(2017-02-28, 12:59 am)no0ne Wrote: Hello, I'm quite new and found this marvelous place so I just came in with a doubt(?)
 
-おまえみたいに行き遅れたらどにもならんしな
How rude is saying this to someone who haven't married yet? What is it assuming anyway? It's a father talking to his daughter btw, they were talking about marriage. This is what he said before that:
-そういうこともあるかもなって話になっただけだ  

p-please

I'm not really sure what the point is that you're confused on, but he's apparently saying that it's no good being unmarried so long like she has been. It's a pretty overbearing thing to say but not entirely unexpected from an old-fashioned patriarchal father. Without knowing what the larger context it's hard to say more precisely, but presumably he means the daughter should get married so as to stop being single at this late stage, but it plausibly might also mean someone else should get married so as not to be unmarried so late  like the daughter is. You'll have to use context to figure out which one it is. (The other line is supremely vague and doesn't really help since without context we have no idea what そういうこと is or who he was talking to.)

(Of course it's vaguely possible that 行き遅れたら actually means being late going somewhere, if the context involves marriage then I'll assume it's the late getting married meaning.)
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(2017-02-28, 4:21 am)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: I'm not really sure what the point is that you're confused on, but he's apparently saying that it's no good being unmarried so long like she has been. It's a pretty overbearing thing to say but not entirely unexpected from an old-fashioned patriarchal father. Without knowing what the larger context it's hard to say more precisely, but presumably he means the daughter should get married so as to stop being single at this late stage, but it plausibly might also mean someone else should get married so as not to be unmarried so late  like the daughter is. You'll have to use context to figure out which one it is. (The other line is supremely vague and doesn't really help since without context we have no idea what そういうこと is or who he was talking to.)

(Of course it's vaguely possible that 行き遅れたら actually means being late going somewhere, if the context involves marriage then I'll assume it's the late getting married meaning.)

I see, thanks. The context for "そういうこと" as I said is exactly getting married, and the  行き遅れたら  for this occasion is what you said about  being unmarried so late . He is a quite old-fashioned father as you noticed.
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Just to translate a little more literally, based on the context you confirmed:

そういうこともあるかもなって話になっただけだ

That sort of thing exists maybe, it has become a topic of conversation, but
[People say that's how it is nowadays, but]

おまえみたいに行き遅れたらどにもならんしな

If (someone) comes to it late like you, nothing good will come of it

[Relaying on what Chris said for this part, どにも was confusing to me)

It's not so much rude as what I would expect an old fashioned parent to say. Like the American mother who's always asking her daughter why she isn't married yet.

Anyone out there more fluent, please correct me! My Japanese is far from perfect.
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(2017-02-28, 6:35 pm)tanaquil Wrote: Just to translate a little more literally, based on the context you confirmed:

そういうこともあるかもなって話になっただけだ  

That sort of thing exists maybe, it has become a topic of conversation, but
[People say that's how it is nowadays, but]

おまえみたいに行き遅れたらどにもならんしな

If (someone) comes to it late like you, nothing good will come of it

[Relaying on what Chris said for this part, どにも was confusing to me)

It's not so much rude as what I would expect an old fashioned parent to say. Like the American mother who's always asking her daughter why she isn't married yet.

Anyone out there more fluent, please correct me! My Japanese is far from perfect.
It's a corruption of どうにもならない

Maybe it would be better on second thought to say that 'once someone is late to get married like you, the situation is hopeless' ... hm.

そういうこと can't be just 'marriage' itself though, because then the sentence would mean 'It just came up in our conversation that marriage might also exist'. Of course marriage exists, you wouldn't put かもって on that. More likely I would suppose そういうこと is some particular circumstance when marriages happen, or some particular type of marriage pairing, but in any case, the actual answer is in the context of the work and I'm just speculating based on the hint that marriage is involved.
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(2017-03-01, 11:47 am)SomeCallMeChris Wrote:
(2017-02-28, 6:35 pm)tanaquil Wrote: Just to translate a little more literally, based on the context you confirmed:

そういうこともあるかもなって話になっただけだ  

That sort of thing exists maybe, it has become a topic of conversation, but
[People say that's how it is nowadays, but]

おまえみたいに行き遅れたらどにもならんしな

If (someone) comes to it late like you, nothing good will come of it

[Relaying on what Chris said for this part, どにも was confusing to me)

It's not so much rude as what I would expect an old fashioned parent to say. Like the American mother who's always asking her daughter why she isn't married yet.

Anyone out there more fluent, please correct me! My Japanese is far from perfect.
It's a corruption of どうにもならない

Maybe it would be better on second thought to say that 'once someone is late to get married like you, the situation is hopeless' ... hm.

そういうこと can't be just 'marriage' itself though, because then the sentence would mean 'It just came up in our conversation that marriage might also exist'. Of course marriage exists, you wouldn't put かもって on that. More likely I would suppose そういうこと is some particular circumstance when marriages happen, or some particular type of marriage pairing, but in any case, the actual answer is in the context of the work and I'm just speculating based on the hint that marriage is involved.

Thanks for explaining どうにもならない!

My understanding was that そういうこと refers to something like the belief that it's ok to wait until you are older to get married, but as you say, it's speculative without larger context.
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I'm reading Fullmetal Alchemist, and there's a phrase that Edward says to Rose that seems very simple, but I can't figure out. He's talking about he and his brothers past (this is on page 36 of the first volume):

ま その話は おいといて 
神様の 正体見たり だな

The rest I understand, but what does the おいといて mean?

Thanks very much!
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I would have to pull out my copy of the Japanese volume to be sure, but my first impression is:

ま その話は おいといて 
神様の 正体見たり だな

Well, leaving aside (おいといて) that story, it is [like (?)] seeing the true appearance of the god(s).

おいといて is based on おく, leave, set, put; おいて is often used to state an exception. (Come to think of it, doesn't this phrase basically use おく twice? おく the verb (put, set aside) plus おく the ending: do something in advance.)
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(2017-04-25, 4:36 pm)tanaquil Wrote: おいといて is based on おく, leave, set, put; おいて is often used to state an exception. (Come to think of it, doesn't this phrase basically use おく twice? おく the verb (put, set aside) plus おく the ending: do something in advance.)

I see, that's exactly right, thanks very much!

There's a discussion of this on lang-8 I found, now that I know it's based on 置く...

http://lang-8.com/55082/journals/2879906...6458237328
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(2017-04-25, 3:17 pm)ergerg Wrote: ま その話は おいといて 
神様の 正体見たり だな
Typo in the second line ...
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(2017-04-25, 8:42 pm)anotherjohn Wrote:
(2017-04-25, 3:17 pm)ergerg Wrote: ま その話は おいといて 
神様の 正体見たり だな
Typo in the second line ...

huh? I just checked again, and unless I'm cracking up that's exactly how it's written...

Do you mean it's missing the "を":

 神様の 正体を見たり だな

If so I agree, but Edward tends to speak very casually
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Hi guys, I have a few questions regarding the Momotarou story on hukumusume, here's the link: http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/jap/08/01.htm

鬼ヶ島では、鬼たちが近くの村からぬすんだ宝物やごちそうをならべて、酒盛りの真っ最中です。
I can't find the grammatical link between ぬすんだ宝物や leading up to ならべて. Are they lining up both the stolen treasure and the feast at the same time? I also don't understand the usage of the verb ならべて to talk about a party preparation.





「みんな、ぬかるなよ。それ、かかれ!」
Can someone explain to me the details of this sentence please?

 
そして桃太郎も、刀をふり回して大あばれです。

Does this sentence mean: "Then, Momotarou swung his blade violently in a circular motion."? If yes, does it imply that any oni was actually hit, or did Momotarou just set up the move, preparing to strike after? (The next sentence should clarify this)
 とうとう鬼の親分が、
「まいったぁ、まいったぁ。こうさんだ、助けてくれぇ」
と、手をついてあやまりました。
 


そして三人は、宝物のおかげでしあわせにくらしましたとさ。

Can someone explain to me the とさ at the end?


Thanks for any help!
Edited: 2017-04-26, 7:22 pm
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(2017-04-26, 7:21 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: Hi guys, I have a few questions regarding the Momotarou story on hukumusume, here's the link: http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/jap/08/01.htm

鬼ヶ島では、鬼たちが近くの村からぬすんだ宝物やごちそうをならべて、酒盛りの真っ最中です。
I can't find the grammatical link between ぬすんだ宝物や leading up to ならべて. Are they lining up both the stolen treasure and the feast at the same time? I also don't understand the usage of the verb ならべて to talk about a party preparation.
You seem to have gotten it. Maybe it helps to think of ならべる as 'array' or 'arrange' rather than 'line up' in this case. The verb is also used for e.g. setting the table. I don't think you're supposed to be imagining a single neat line here. So the feast and all the treasures (and other unspecified loot, we gather from using や instead of と but presumably including alcohol from the rest of the sentence) are all laid out on the table(s) that aren't mentioned but we can suppose exist (or, being 鬼, who knows, maybe it's arrayed on the floor, but I imagine a table), and then they set to drinking and feasting.



Quote:「みんな、ぬかるなよ。それ、かかれ!」
Can someone explain to me the details of this sentence please?
ぬかるな is negative imperative, 'don't screw up'.
かかれ is affirmative imperative, 'get 'em' (掛かる can be a synonym for 攻める).

Quote: 
そして桃太郎も、刀をふり回して大あばれです。
Momotaro brandishes his blade, and goes on a huge rampage.
There's no specifics here about the exact moves, we can only conclude from the next line that whatever they were they gave the oni a trouncing.

Quote:そして三人は、宝物のおかげでしあわせにくらしましたとさ。

Can someone explain to me the とさ at the end?


I think it's just short for ということでさ (which is casual for ということでした。おしまい。 or something.)

In any case, it's the quotation particle と and the sentence final particle さ putting an 'and that's how it was' kind of finish to the story.

(Just noticed とさ is in EDICT, or JMdict I guess it is now, as 'apparently ; from what I have heard ; they say' etc. ... I don't see it in the regular dictionary though, but, eh, whether it's 'really' a compound particle or just two particles sometimes used together, that's the right feel I think.)
Edited: 2017-04-26, 11:05 pm
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(2017-04-26, 7:21 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: Hi guys, I have a few questions regarding the Momotarou story on hukumusume, here's the link: http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/jap/08/01.htm

鬼ヶ島では、鬼たちが近くの村からぬすんだ宝物やごちそうをならべて、酒盛りの真っ最中です。
I can't find the grammatical link between ぬすんだ宝物や leading up to ならべて. Are they lining up both the stolen treasure and the feast at the same time? I also don't understand the usage of the verb ならべて to talk about a party preparation.


Yep they're laying out the food and the treasure. ならぶ doesn't just mean "line up" but also "set out" or basically anything where the positioning is deliberate. Setting the table is a common usage but it's a very versatile word.


(2017-04-26, 7:21 pm)Iuri_ Wrote:  
そして桃太郎も、刀をふり回して大あばれです。

Does this sentence mean: "Then, Momotarou swung his blade violently in a circular motion."? If yes, does it imply that any oni was actually hit, or did Momotarou just set up the move, preparing to strike after? (The next sentence should clarify this)
 とうとう鬼の親分が、
「まいったぁ、まいったぁ。こうさんだ、助けてくれぇ」
と、手をついてあやまりました。
 

"Then Momotarou also, ran wild swinging his sword around"

ふりまわる is like the English "swing around". It doesn't really imply a circular motion specifically.

It's not clear whether or not he hit anyone but it definitely involves lots of action.

(2017-04-26, 7:21 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: そして三人は、宝物のおかげでしあわせにくらしましたとさ。

Can someone explain to me the とさ at the end?


Thanks for any help!

It just means "they say" or "I hear". In this context "...is how the story goes" might work. The と is the quoting kind.
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Thank you @SomeCallMeChris and @Splatted, you solved all of my questions!

Just one thing, @SomeCallMeChris, what is an EDICT, or JMdict?
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(2017-04-27, 6:58 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: what is an EDICT, or JMdict?

http://www.edrdg.org/jmdict/j_jmdict.html
http://www.edrdg.org/cgi-bin/wwwjdic/wwwjdic?1C
Edited: 2017-04-27, 8:02 pm
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(2017-04-27, 6:58 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: Thank you @SomeCallMeChris and @Splatted, you solved all of my questions!

Just one thing, @SomeCallMeChris, what is an EDICT, or JMdict?

The dictionary database (old format and new of essentially the same project) that is used by rikaichan/kun/sama, jisho.org, wwwjdic, and several hundred free smartphone apps. That's why so many apps and websites give the same definitions. For more details, yogert was kind enough to provide a link.
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Thanks guys, that is very good to know.
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According to Jisho.org the phrase お疲れ様 can mean "that's enough for today" (link). In what situations is this phrase used to this effect?
Edited: 2017-05-02, 7:47 am
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Someone who lives in Japan can probably explain more fully, but my sense is that it's what you routinely say at the end of the day at the office (or other work setting). Like "good work today, everyone," or even just "that's it for me, I'm heading out" (although for the latter you might say o-saki-ni-shitsureishimasu if you're first out the door).

You can also say it to someone who has just finished a difficult task, like taking an exam.
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Seems a mistake to me.
"that's enough for today" is an expression I'd rather say to myself, while お疲れ様 is always directed to someone.
Based on that article http://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/139893 お疲れ様 is also used to say good morning.
Generaly speaking, dictionaries' definitions and exemple sentences are sometime far from their practical usage.
I'd rather stay away from that definition unless I hear it used somewhere.
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(2017-05-02, 11:04 am)pied2porc Wrote: Seems a mistake to me.
...
I'd rather stay away from that definition unless I hear it used somewhere.

I mean, the real "definition" is pretty much just "I recognize and respect your hard work."

But you would never translate it that way, in any natural translation of any situation ever. The closest you would get is "Good job today, thank you."

Nearly all the 'definitions' you see are just cases of set phrases that you would use in the same situation that the Japanese would use お疲れ様.  I think it's a mistake to worry about the 'definition' at all beyond the basic feeling it conveys, the rest is just a matter of observing how it's used in context and mimicking that, like most idiomatic phrases.

For "That's enough for today", it's probably referring to when the boss (teacher, club senpai, etc.) is using it to put a cap on the days activities. It is sometimes used in those situations to kind of simultaneously thank people for their efforts and let them know that they're done for the day.
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