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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread

Hi guys, I've been reading stories at hukumusume lately, and sometyimes I kinda have troubles with some of them that appear to be more hum, say, idiomatic, I'm currently reading the Tengu one and I wonder if you could help me with some lines:

webpage: http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/jap/01/03.htm



Problematic sentences so far:

「テングは、誰でも術という物を使うそうじゃが、本当かいのう」
「ワハハハハッ。わしはこれでも、テングの頭じゃ。術ぐらい使えんでなんとする」
「そうかい。テングいう物は、どこのテングでも天まで大きゅうなれるというが、お前さまは、なれるかね」
「天まで大きゅうなる? そんな事が出来んで、どうなる」

I would really appreciate it if you could go word by word if you have the time, thanks!
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(2016-11-14, 7:18 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: Hi guys, I've been reading stories at hukumusume lately, and sometyimes I kinda have troubles with some of them that appear to be more hum, say, idiomatic, I'm currently reading the Tengu one and I wonder if you could help me with some lines:

webpage: http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/jap/01/03.htm



Problematic sentences so far:

「テングは、誰でも術という物を使うそうじゃが、本当かいのう」
「ワハハハハッ。わしはこれでも、テングの頭じゃ。術ぐらい使えんでなんとする」
「そうかい。テングいう物は、どこのテングでも天まで大きゅうなれるというが、お前さまは、なれるかね」
「天まで大きゅうなる? そんな事が出来んで、どうなる」

I would really appreciate it if you could go word by word if you have the time, thanks!

「テングは、誰でも術という物を使うそうじゃが、本当かいのう」
Tengu are all said to use jutsu. Is it true?
「ワハハハハッ。わしはこれでも、テングの頭じゃ。術ぐらい使えんでなんとする」
Wahahaha. I'm the boss of the tengu, you know. Of course I can use jutsu.
「そうかい。テングいう物は、どこのテングでも天まで大きゅうなれるというが、お前さまは、なれるかね」
Really? It's said that all tengu can make themselves as tall as the heavens... can you do it?
「天まで大きゅうなる? そんな事が出来んで、どうなる」
As tall as the heavens? Of course I can!

What parts are causing you trouble??
じゃ→だ
頭→read: かしら = leader/chief/boss
術ぐらい→the ぐらい emphasizes how easy something like 術 is to him
これでも→こう見えても
使えん→使えない
大きゅう→大きく
なれる→potential form of なる
そんな事→something as easy as that (the そんな again emphasizes how trifling it is for him)
出来ん→できない
××できないで[できなくて]どうする[なんとする・どうなる・etc] (common pattern)→ (lit.) what would I do if I couldn't do XX? → meaning (in this case): How can I not? Of course I can! (comes up twice in the segment you quoted)
Edited: 2016-11-14, 9:28 pm
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(2016-11-14, 9:05 pm)Ash_S Wrote: What parts are causing you trouble??

Thank you, I was having problems with almost all of the parts that you explained! The different endings were really giving me a hard time, is that dialectal Japanese?

I'm still in doubt about two parts:

どこのテングでも天まで
I mean, I understood your translation but I can't figure out how it relates to the original sentence, I just didn't understand the grammar involved.

Another thing, what does いのう mean at 本当かいのう?
Edited: 2016-11-15, 12:28 pm
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(2016-11-15, 12:27 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: どこのテングでも天まで
どこの<noun>でも is a structure that means 'All <noun> everywhere' or 'Each and every <noun>', in this case 'Each and every Tengu'. 天まで is part of the next phrase, '天まで大きゅうなれる' (able to become tall enough to touch the heavens, or something like that.)

Quote:本当かいのう?
Dialect for 本当かな ; often used by old people in fiction, but probably not much used in real life (maybe in some rural dialects).
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@SomeCallMeChris, thanks!

I'm starting to think that maybe those stories are too much for me Undecided, however, I understand how important native materials are so I guess I'll keep trying to pull through. I was managing some a them fine but now I'm starting to encounter problematic ones, for example, this following dialogue, I can get the meaning of some parts but the whole thing just doesn't make any sense for me:

webpage: http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/jap/01/04c.html

「うむ、実はな。
 お前があまりにも貧乏なので、この家には、わしの食い物が一つもない。
 さすがのわしも、このままでは命が持たん。
 そこで逃げ出そうとしたのじゃが、あまりの空腹に力が入らず、うっかり落ちてしまったのじゃ」
「そうか、おれは貧乏神も逃げ出すほどの貧乏だったのか。
 まあ、出て行ってくれるのなら、おれもありがたい。
 せめて見送ってやりたいが、おれも腹が減って動けないんだ。
 だから悪いけど、勝手に出て行ってくれ」
 そう言って再び寝ようとする男に、貧乏神は言いました。
「まあ、寝るのはもう少し待って、わしの話を聞くんじゃ。
 わしはな、貧乏神とはいえ、これでも立派な神のはしくれだ。
 長年世話になったのに、礼もせんと出て行くわけにはいかん。
 そこでお前に、一つ良い事を教えてやろう」

I didn't have any problems with the momotarou story or the tsuru musume one, I wonder why some of them are so much more difficult. Undecided
Edited: 2016-11-15, 3:07 pm
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Quote:I didn't have any problems with the momotarou story or the tsuru musume one, I wonder why some of them are so much more difficult.
Is it the ones with lots of dialogue that are giving you trouble? Where you get all the fictional old man speech patterns (わし、~じゃ、~ん, etc = 役割語)
Maybe the ones you find easy to read are less dialogue-heavy? Dunno, just a thought.
Edited: 2016-11-15, 9:31 pm
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(2016-11-15, 3:06 pm)Iuri_ Wrote: 「うむ、実はな。
 お前があまりにも貧乏なので、この家には、わしの食い物が一つもない。
 さすがのわしも、このままでは命が持たん。 そこで逃げ出そうとしたのじゃが、あまりの空腹に力が入らず、うっかり落ちてしまったのじゃ」
Is it just dialect throwing you off? If I rewrite like this,

「ふん、じつはね。お前があまりにも貧乏なので、この家には、私の食べ物が一つもない。さすが、私も、このままでは命が持たない。それで、逃げ出そうとしたのですが、あまりの空腹に力が(体に)入らなくて、うっかり落ちてしまったんです。」

does it then make sense to you?
Or is there a grammatical relationship that is unclear to you?

It's really hard to advise you on a whole passage. I could translate the passage (or the story), but I'm not sure that would really help.

I can say that in the above passage, 命が持たん uses 持つ in the same definition as milk going bad (or staying fresh, but this is the negative). In other words, it won't hold out.

力が入らない is in the sense of the body; if you put 力 into the body (or a body part) you're exerting physical strength. In this case in the negative, he was unable to muster enough strength.
Edited: 2016-11-15, 10:41 pm
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The dialectal Japanese is for sure contributing to my difficulty in reading the stories as I had never encountered them before, but I'm not sure it's only that. I think the biggest problem is that I'm just not used to the Japanese way of expressing things yet, as I've just got out from textbook Japanese I have to get my brain accostumed to the many patterns that the Japanese language use to express things, I think this is a kind of thing that you can't really learn well from textbooks. In this story for example, in some passages I understood the grammar but even so I couldn't understand why that sentence would make any sense for the story, I think that, yes, dialogue passages tend to be even more difficult because in those instances the language tend to be even more idiomatic, especially in these old-stories.

What I'm going to do for this story is going myself through all of it, sentence by sentence, translating what I understood from it, if anyone can check my translations that would be great.

@SomCallMeChris; The part that you rewrote became much more clear to me, and closer to what I encounter on textbooks.

むかしむかし、あるところに、ひどくなまけ者で貧乏な男がいました。

Once upon a time, in a certain place there was a man very lazy and poor.

 ある年の暮れの事、男が空腹をがまんしながらいろりの横で寝ていると、天井裏から何かが、
At a year’s end, the man was lying down hungry near the fire, when suddenly obove the ceiling there’s a noise
I didn’t understand:空腹をがまんしながら; is that gaman+shi+nagara, or gaman+shinagara?

 ズドン!
sound
と、落ちてきました。

then, something falls down

「なっ、何だ?」
what the...!?

 男がびっくりして飛び起きると、落ちてきたのはつぎはぎだらけの汚い着物を着た貧相なおじいさんでした。
The man jump on his feet scared, the thing that fell down was a thin old man wearing a patchwork of dirty kimono
Is this division of words correct? 男 が びっくりして 飛び起きる と、落ちて きた の は つぎはぎ だらけ の 汚い 着物 を 着た 貧相 な おじいさん でした。


「何だ、お前は! おれの家の天井裏で、何をしていた!」
What, you! What were you doing over my ceiling!?

 するとおじいさんは、頭をポリポリとかきながら答えました。
This part is hard, is it と かき ながら or とか き ながら? What does that mean?
I think it should be to+kaki(the following)+while+replied, so:
Then, the old man, said while recovering himself from the fall: (did I understand 頭をポリポリ right?)


「わしはな、この家に長い間やっかいになっている貧乏神だ」
Me? for a long time I have been taking care of this house as its God of Poverty. (see, that’s what I was trying to say at the beginning of my post, why would this sentence make any sense, also why would it be a good thing to be someone’s god of poverty?)

「貧乏神? まあ、この家なら貧乏神の一人や二人いても不思議ではないが、それが何しに降りて来た?」
God of Poverty, well, no wonder there should be one or two gods of poverty in this house, in that case, why did you come down?
Is 何しに nan+shi(particle)+ni?


「うむ、実はな。
 お前があまりにも貧乏なので、この家には、わしの食い物が一つもない。
 さすがのわしも、このままでは命が持たん。
 そこで逃げ出そうとしたのじゃが、あまりの空腹に力が入らず、うっかり落ちてしまったのじゃ」
Well, actually, you are so poor that there is no food for me in this house.(what is he talking about, do Gods need to eat, is he calling the “man” food?)
As things are, even I can’t live in these conditions.
I tried to escape, but since I was so hungry I couldn’t muster much strength and I ended up falling down.
Is it 逃げ出そう と した or 逃げ出そう とした ?

「そうか、おれは貧乏神も逃げ出すほどの貧乏だったのか。
Is that so? I was poor enough that even the God of Poverty would run away from me?

 まあ、出て行ってくれるのなら、おれもありがたい。
Well, I would be thankful myself if you’d leave

 せめて見送ってやりたいが、おれも腹が減って動けないんだ。
I would at least see you off but since I’m so hungry I can’t move from here


 だから悪いけど、勝手に出て行ってくれ」
So I’m sorry but please take your leave


 そう言って再び寝ようとする男に、貧乏神は言いました。
The man laid down again, then the God of Poverty told him:

「まあ、寝るのはもう少し待って、わしの話を聞くんじゃ。
Wait just a minute, before you go back to sleep I would like to tell you a story

 わしはな、貧乏神とはいえ、これでも立派な神のはしくれだ。
I didn’t understand: 神のはしくれ
Well, although I am a God of Poverty, I am a splendid God.

 長年世話になったのに、礼もせんと出て行くわけにはいかん。
I have been looked after for many years so...I didn’t understand the grammar and word separation in:礼もせんと出て行くわけにはいかん。
 そこでお前に、一つ良い事を教えてやろう」

So I’ll teach you a nice thing.

「良い事?」
Nice thing?

「ああ、明日の日の出と共に、この家の前を宝物を積んだ馬が通る。
Yes, tomorrow at sunrise, at the front of this house horses loaded with treasure will pass by.

 一番目の馬は、金を積んどる。
The first horse will be loeaded with gold. (What does んどる mean?)


 二番目の馬は、銀を積んどる。
The second horse will be loeaded with silver.


 三番目の馬は、銅を積んどる。
The third horse will be loeaded with copper.

 そのどれでもええから、馬を棒で殴ってみろ。
So anyone that wishes may hit the horse with a club(?????) I didn’t understand what the story is trying to say with this, does it mean kill the horse with a club? Also, this grammar: ええから

 そうすればその馬の宝は、お前の物になる」
So the horse’s treasure will be his.

「なるほど、確かにそれは良い話しだ。
That’s certainly a very interesting story indeed!

 して、殴ってもいい馬は、一頭だけか?
So, can I only hit one horse?

 三頭とも殴っては、駄目なのか?」
Can’t I hit three horses?

「ほっほほほ。
I didn’t understand this, but it shouldn’t be important

 なんじゃ、急に欲が出てきたか。
What did you say, becoming greedy hein?

 もちろん、三頭全部でも良いぞ。
Of course you can hit all three.

 三番目の馬だけなら、普通の暮らし。
If you only hit the third, you’ll have a normal living.

 二番目の馬も加われば、裕福な暮らし。
If you add the second, you’ll have a prosperous living.

 一番目の馬も加われば、お前は長者になれるじゃろう。
If you hit even the first, you will become a millionaire.

 だがな、その最後に通る四番目の馬だけは、決して殴るなよ。
However, do not ever hit the fourth horse.

 その馬は、わしが出て行く為の馬だからな」
Because that horse is is the horse I’ll use to leave

「わかった。最後のは殴らん」
Understood, I’m not supposed to hit the last horse.

 男はそう言うと、また寝てしまいました。
As the man said so, he returned to sleep.


 さて次の日、日の出と共に起きるはずの男は、いつものなまけぐせで少し寝坊をしてしまいました。
Well, the following day, the man who was supposed to wake up at sunrise, as usual ended up oversleeping.

「いけねえ! 寝過ごした!」
I have to go, I overslept!

 男があわてて家を飛び出すと、ちょうど家の前を立派な荷物を積んだ馬が通ろうとしていました。
The man jump out of his house in haste when a horse loaded with fine baggage was passing in front.

「よし、間に合った。あれが金の馬だな。これでおれは、長者になれるぞ」
Yes, I got in time, that is the gold horse right? With this I shall become a millionaire!

 男は庭から物干し竿を持ち出すと、その馬の頭めがけて物干し竿を振り下ろしました。
The man took out a pole from the garden, aimed at the horse’s head, and swand the pole downwards.

「えいっ!」
some expression

 しかし物干し竿が長すぎて、途中の木の枝に引っかかってしまったのです。
However, the pole was too long, so it got stuck in a tree branch that was in the way.

 その間に宝物を乗せた馬は、ゆうゆうと通り過ぎて行きました。
In the meanwhile, the horse loaded with gold calmly passed by.

「しまった!
Da** it!

 金の馬を、逃がしてしまった!
The gold horse escaped!

 ・・・まあいい、残りの銀の馬と銅の馬を殴ってしまえば、おれは大金持ちになれるぞ。
That’s alright, if i strike the silver and copper horse I shall be very rich.

 よし、次は短い棒で」
Ok, I’ll hit the next with a shorter pole.

 男は台所からゴマをすりつぶす『すりこぎ棒』を持って来ると、二番目の馬がやって来るのを待ちました。
Ok, I’ll bring a wooden pestle from the kitchen and wait for the second horse.

 間もなく、また立派な荷物を積んだ馬が、家の前を通ろうとしました。
Before long, another horse with splendid luggage passed in front of the house.

「よし、これが銀の馬だな。今度こそ、えいっ!」
This is the silver horse, this time for sure I’ll…!

 男はすりこぎ棒を振り上げると、馬の頭めがけて振り下ろしました。
The man raises the wooden pestle above his head, aimed at the horse’s head, then swang the pestle downward.

 しかしいくらなんでもすりこぎ棒では短すぎて、馬の頭には届きませんでした。
However, the wooden pestle was too short, it wasn’t enough to reach the horse’s head.

 宝物を乗せた馬は、男の横をゆうゆうと通り過ぎて行きます。
The horse loaded with treasure calmly passed by the man’s side.

「しまった! またしくじったか。今度は、もう少し長めの棒にしよう」
Da** it, I failed again, this time I shall get a pole a bit longer.

 そこで男はてんびん棒を持って来て、次の馬が来るのを待ちました。
Then the man brought a shoulder pole and waited for the horse to come.

 やがて馬がやって来たのですが、この馬には荷物が積まれていません。
Before long a horse came, but that horse wasn’t carrying any treasure.

「おかしいな?
That’s weird.

 銅の馬のやつ、何も積んでいないぞ。
It’s the copper horse, but he’s not carrying any treasure. ( What’s やつ?)

 まあいい、今度こそ馬を仕留めて、普通の暮らしを手に入れてやる」
Well, that’s ok, this time I’ll surely bring down the horse, and with it I’ll live a nice normal life.

 男はてんびん棒を振り上げると、馬の頭めがけて振り下ろしました。
The man raised the shoulder pole above his head, aimed at the horse’s head and swang the pole downwards.

 ゴチーン!
Expression

 てんびん棒は見事に馬の頭に命中して、馬はそのまま死んでしまいました。
The pole hit the horse’s head splendidly, and the horse fell down dead. What does そのまま mean?

「やった! 銅の馬をしとめたぞ!」
Yes, I did it, I brought down the copper horse!

 男が大喜びしていると、家の天井裏から貧乏神が降りて来て、がっかりしながら言いました。
The man was very happy, then the God of Poverty came down from the ceiling, he was very disappointed, and said:

「ああ、なんて事を。
Ah, what did you do?

 お前は、わしが乗るはずの馬を殺してしまったな。
You, you killed the horse that I was supposed to ride didn’t you.

 せっかく、よその家で暮らそうと思ったのに、これでは旅立つ事が出来ないではないか。
With an effort on my part, I was planning on living in another house, however, now I can’t travel anymore.  (Why did the sentence repeat the negative? 出来ないではない)

 ・・・仕方がない、これからもお前の所でやっかいになるぞ」
It’s no use, now I’ll have to live at your expenses.


 こうして男は、それからも貧乏な暮らしを続けたと言う事です。
So, the man from then on continued to live a poor life.

おしまい


I laughed out loud a lot with this story, but it's kinda interesting and different, I hope my translations are not way off. One thing that I noticed is that I'm having more trouble with these stories because sometimes they invert the order of the particles within a sentence, I had already been told that this could happen but since I was used to textbook Japanese, where particles order usually remain constant, I'm yet to get used to more "free usage" of particles order.
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(2016-11-16, 9:33 am)Iuri_ Wrote:  ある年の暮れの事、男が空腹をがまんしながらいろりの横で寝ていると、天井裏から何かが、
At a year’s end, the man was lying down hungry near the fire, when suddenly obove the ceiling there’s a noise
I didn’t understand:空腹をがまんしながら; is that gaman+shi+nagara, or gaman+shinagara?
我慢+する+ながら→我慢しながら→ 'while enduring'

Quote: ズドン!
sound
と、
"with a thud" - this is a adjectival と (used with sound effects or onomatopoeia) describing how the following action happens.

Quote:The man jump on his feet scared, the thing that fell down was a thin old man wearing a patchwork of dirty kimono

Is this division of words correct? 男 が びっくりして 飛び起きる と、落ちて きた の は つぎはぎ だらけ の 汚い 着物 を 着た 貧相 な おじいさん でした。
The division of words is correct, but you might be making a small grouping error.
Both つぎはぎだらけ and 汚い are describing 着物, like 'a dirty patchwork kimono'.
The way you translated it makes me think that you're thinking つぎはぎだらけ describes 汚い着物.
(It doesn't matter much here, but in other sentences it might.)

Quote:「何だ、お前は! おれの家の天井裏で、何をしていた!」
What, you! What were you doing over my ceiling!?
I would say 'in my ceiling' or 'in my rafters', but that's a question of English, you understand the Japanese correctly.

Quote: するとおじいさんは、頭をポリポリとかきながら答えました。
This part is hard, is it と かき ながら or とか き ながら? What does that mean?
This is 掻く, 'to scratch', and ポリポリと describes the sound of it happening. '頭を ポリポリと 掻きながら'.

Quote:「わしはな、この家に長い間やっかいになっている貧乏神だ」
Me? for a long time I have been taking care of this house as its God of Poverty. (see, that’s what I was trying to say at the beginning of my post, why would this sentence make any sense, also why would it be a good thing to be someone’s god of poverty?)
厄介になる is similar to 世話になる, and indicates that 貧乏神 has been an (unwanted) guest in the house, he hasn't been taking care of the house at all. And it's not generally a good thing to have a 貧乏神 around, as they bring trouble on the house, but on the other hand, their departure can signify a reversal of fortunes (which is the key point of this story, a chance for 怠け者 to see the 貧乏神 off and reverse his fortunes.)
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B2%A7%...F%E7%A5%9E

Quote:「貧乏神? まあ、この家なら貧乏神の一人や二人いても不思議ではないが、それが何しに降りて来た?」
God of Poverty, well, no wonder there should be one or two gods of poverty in this house, in that case, why did you come down?
Is 何しに nan+shi(particle)+ni?
なに+する+に→なにしに ; 何しに来た would be 'what did you come here to do?', 何しに降りてきた is 'what did you come down to do?'. (You should have seen stem+ni+verb of motion 'going(coming) for a purpose' in your textbook, this is just the 何をする version of that with the を omitted.)

Quote:「うむ、実はな。
 お前があまりにも貧乏なので、この家には、わしの食い物が一つもない。
 さすがのわしも、このままでは命が持たん。
 そこで逃げ出そうとしたのじゃが、あまりの空腹に力が入らず、うっかり落ちてしまったのじゃ」
Well, actually, you are so poor that there is no food for me in this house.(what is he talking about, do Gods need to eat, is he calling the “man” food?)
As things are, even I can’t live in these conditions.
I tried to escape, but since I was so hungry I couldn’t muster much strength and I ended up falling down.
Is it 逃げ出そう と した or 逃げ出そう とした ?
In this story, apparently they do need to eat. And he's saying there's nothing in the house for him to eat, he wouldn't eat a person! Don't be misled by the translation 'god'. The word is used for the monotheistic 'God' and for deities in the pantheons, but it's also used for beings that would be called faeries or spirits or the like if they appeared in a western folk tale.

As such,
Quote:「そうか、おれは貧乏神も逃げ出すほどの貧乏だったのか。
Is that so? I was poor enough that even the God of Poverty would run away from me?
It's not 'The God of Poverty'. It's just 'a god of poverty'.

Quote: そう言って再び寝ようとする男に、貧乏神は言いました。
The man laid down again, then the God of Poverty told him:
Small detail but, 寝ようとする is to attempt to lie down (or sleep); he doesn't actually do so before the 貧乏神 is interrupting him.

「まあ、寝るのはもう少し待って、わしの話を聞くんじゃ。
Wait just a minute, before you go back to sleep I would like to tell you a story

Quote: わしはな、貧乏神とはいえ、これでも立派な神のはしくれだ。
I didn’t understand: 神のはしくれ
Well, although I am a God of Poverty, I am a splendid God.
It's a confusing sentence certainly, but はしくれ is a word used to describe an unimportant person - low level bureaucrats and minor roles in an organization. Mixing it with 立派 is a little self contradictory, but still, he's saying he's really good at being a minor deity.

Quote: 長年世話になったのに、礼もせんと出て行くわけにはいかん。
I have been looked after for many years so...I didn’t understand the grammar and word separation in:礼もせんと出て行くわけにはいかん。
せんと is a negative する, plus a conditional と; similarly for いかん and いく.

It's the same as if it were, 礼もしなければ出て行くわけにはいけません。

 一番目の馬は、金を積んどる。
The first horse will be loeaded with gold. (What does んどる mean?)
I believe 積んどる is a contraction of 積んでおる (same meaning as 積んでいる, but the humble of いる).

Quote: そのどれでもええから、馬を棒で殴ってみろ。
So anyone that wishes may hit the horse with a club(?????) I didn’t understand what the story is trying to say with this, does it mean kill the horse with a club? Also, this grammar: ええから
どれでも、 not だれでも : whichever, not whoever.

Same as どれでもいいから ; Whichever one is fine.
'Whichever one is fine, so try hitting them with a club.'
It turns out to apparently mean killing the horse with a club, but this sentence doesn't say that, it just says hit them with a club.

Quote: そうすればその馬の宝は、お前の物になる」
So the horse’s treasure will be his.
お前 is 'you'. 'Do that and that horse's treasure will become yours'.
The offer isn't extended to anyone else.

Quote:「ほっほほほ。
I didn’t understand this, but it shouldn’t be important
It's the sound of laughing or chuckling.

Quote: なんじゃ、急に欲が出てきたか。
What did you say, becoming greedy hein?
Not 'what did you say', なんじゃ is just an exclamation. (なんじゃと would be 'what did you say?', the quote particle is important).
'What's this, you've suddenly shown your greed'. (lit. 'your greed has suddenly appeared'.)

Quote: 二番目の馬も加われば、裕福な暮らし。
If you add the second, you’ll have a prosperous living.

 一番目の馬も加われば、お前は長者になれるじゃろう。
If you hit even the first, you will become a millionaire.
These two lines are the same grammar. You had it right the first time and then changed it for the next.


Quote:「わかった。最後のは殴らん」
Understood, I’m not supposed to hit the last horse.
Minor point but 殴らん (殴らない) is just 'I won't hit' ; there's no 'should' structure here; 'not supposed to' is fine as a natural translation as it's implied in this context, but it's not actually written.

Quote:「いけねえ! 寝過ごした!」
I have to go, I overslept!
いけねえ→いけない→'not good'
'Oh no, I overslept!'

Quote: 男があわてて家を飛び出すと、ちょうど家の前を立派な荷物を積んだ馬が通ろうとしていました。
The man jump out of his house in haste when a horse loaded with fine baggage was passing in front.
家を飛び出す→rushed out of the house

Quote: 男は庭から物干し竿を持ち出すと、その馬の頭めがけて物干し竿を振り下ろしました。
The man took out a pole from the garden, aimed at the horse’s head, and swand the pole downwards.
Took a clothes-drying pole from the yard.

Quote:「えいっ!」
some expression
Sound of being startled.

Quote: その間に宝物を乗せた馬は、ゆうゆうと通り過ぎて行きました。
In the meanwhile, the horse loaded with gold calmly passed by.
From context we know it's gold, but this sentence only says 'treasure'.

Quote: 金の馬を、逃がしてしまった!
The gold horse escaped!
The verb actually means 'to let escape', the man is the actor not the horse. 'I let the gold horse get away!'

Quote: 男は台所からゴマをすりつぶす『すりこぎ棒』を持って来ると、二番目の馬がやって来るのを待ちました。
Ok, I’ll bring a wooden pestle from the kitchen and wait for the second horse.
The man's not speaking here, this is prose describing his actions.
"The man brought a sesame-seed crushing pestle from the kitchen, and waited for the second horse to come along".


Quote: 銅の馬のやつ、何も積んでいないぞ。
It’s the copper horse, but he’s not carrying any treasure. ( What’s やつ?)
It's really the same やつ that means 'guy/fellow', but it's also used for animals and objects. It just means 'this one' here, 'This one is the copper horse'. It's just used for tone here, a sense that this is a commonplace horse maybe, or something like that.


Quote: てんびん棒は見事に馬の頭に命中して、馬はそのまま死んでしまいました。
The pole hit the horse’s head splendidly, and the horse fell down dead. What does そのまま mean?
そのまま means 'just as it is'. When the pole hits the horses head, then, without anything else happening, right like that, the horse falls dead.
(This is the less common use of そのまま ; it's more often used to describe something that is continuing on without changing.)

Quote: せっかく、よその家で暮らそうと思ったのに、これでは旅立つ事が出来ないではないか。
With an effort on my part, I was planning on living in another house, however, now I can’t travel anymore.  (Why did the sentence repeat the negative? 出来ないではない)
せっかく is more like 'at long last' here, I think.
ではないか is the non-contracted form of じゃないか, it's a common ending to make a sentence into a rhetorical question.

Quote: ・・・仕方がない、これからもお前の所でやっかいになるぞ」
It’s no use, now I’ll have to live at your expenses.
仕方がない is more like 'There's no helping it', 'There's no getting around it', or the like.
I don't know if I'd translate やっかいになる as 'live at your expense'... it's the same やっかいになる as back at the beginning of the story. In any case, これから is 'From here on, I'll still...'
"There's no help for it, going forward I'll have to continue imposing on you." or something like that.

Quote:I laughed out loud a lot with this story, but it's kinda interesting and different, I hope my translations are not way off. One thing that I noticed is that I'm having more trouble with these stories because sometimes they invert the order of the particles within a sentence, I had already been told that this could happen but since I was used to textbook Japanese, where particles order usually remain constant, I'm yet to get used to more "free usage" of particles order.
It looks like you got most of it pretty well. Most of my corrections were small points. The parts I skipped over are because I didn't see any errors or questions there. Most of your trouble seems to be coming from expressions that you're not yet familiar with or contractions and dialect changes that are making it hard to recognize the original word.
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@SomeCallMeChris, thank you so much for answering all of my questions! I carefully read all of it and saved the post in my Japanese files for future reference. I'm glad I didn't have THAT many mistakes and with all of the things I've learned I should be well on my way to reading other stories, things will be a lot easier now that I got the hang of a few things and a bit of dialect Japanese Tongue.

Thank you again! Big Grin
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待ちに待ったゲーム.
In what books or resources do they teach the form [ verb stem + に + same verb ] like above? I remember reading it somewhere...
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(2016-11-18, 8:23 am)slako Wrote: 待ちに待ったゲーム.
In what books or resources do they teach the form [ verb stem  + に + same verb ] like above? I remember reading it somewhere...

I found a small blurb about it on imabi: http://www.imabi.net/l33particleniii.htm
See item 26.
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Hey guys, I've got a question about a sentence I saw on twitter today.
私、小食な上に食べるの遅くって。一緒に食べてる人を待たせないようにいつも急ぐんですけど…
I get the second sentence, but what is the 小食な上に? I'm assuming the 食べるの遅くって is someone else saying the speaker eats slowly or something, but I don't understand why 小食 is used as a な adjective, and I also don't know what the 上に is here either.
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(2016-11-28, 11:47 pm)HolyKotor Wrote: Hey guys, I've got a question about a sentence I saw on twitter today.
私、小食な上に食べるの遅くって。一緒に食べてる人を待たせないようにいつも急ぐんですけど…
I get the second sentence, but what is the 小食な上に? I'm assuming the 食べるの遅くって is someone else saying the speaker eats slowly or something, but I don't understand why 小食 is used as a な adjective, and I also don't know what the 上に is here either.

少食の上に vs 少食な上に

Google searches show that 少食の上に is 4x more common so that leads to one of two conclusions. Either the な version is wrong or both versions have an implied 人の that got omitted. (ie. 少食な人の上に) In either case the meaning is clear as written.

少食な上に

X上にY is being used to emphasize that even among X she is more Y than that group. Thus 小食な上に ends up being something like "Even among those who eat very little ..."

So the whole thought is like:
Even among people who don't each much I am a really slow eater, but ...
Edited: 2016-11-29, 2:13 am
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小食(少食) is noun or adjective about not eating a lot
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/108918/me...%E9%A3%9F/
both な and の after it are fine. some adjectives are like that (特別 for example)

(2016-11-29, 12:11 am)tokyostyle Wrote: Google searches show that 少食の上に is 10x more common so that leads to one of two conclusions. Either the な version is wrong or both versions have an implied 人の that got omitted. (ie. 少食な人の上に) In either case the meaning is clear as written.

少食な上に isn't wrong

also don't believe the number at the top of google searches. when you skip forwards some pages (preferably until you run out of pages) the number of results changes significantly
(http://meta.japanese.stackexchange.com/q...ou-imagine)

turns out this is the case here too with 少食な(の)上に (searching with quotation marks)

Quote:X上にY is being used to emphasize that even among X she is more Y than that group. Thus 小食な上に ends up being something like "Even among those who eat very little ..."
上に isn't about 'among a group'
it's just 'on top of that', 'additionally'

this usage
↓↓
6 ある事柄と他の事柄とを関係させていう時に用いる。
㋐…に加えて。「ねだんが安い―に、品質が優れている」
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/17464/meaning/m0u/

Quote:Even among people who don't each much I am told I am a really slow eater.
I guess the 'I am told' in your translation (and the "someone else saying" in the original question) comes from the って in 遅くって?
But this is actually just the same as the te-form you're used to (遅くて)
Edited: 2016-11-29, 12:52 am
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(2016-11-29, 12:11 am)tokyostyle Wrote: 少食の上に vs 少食な上に

Google searches show that 少食の上に is 10x more common so that leads to one of two conclusions. Either the な version is wrong or both versions have an implied 人の that got omitted. (ie. 少食な人の上に) In either case the meaning is clear as written.

少食な上に

X上にY is being used to emphasize that even among X she is more Y than that group. Thus 小食な上に ends up being something like "Even among those who eat very little ..."

So the whole thought is like:
Even among people who don't each much I am told I am a really slow eater.

Wow, that is really, really helpful. Thanks a lot for the explanation!
Edited: 2016-11-29, 12:38 am
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(2016-11-29, 12:31 am)Ash_S Wrote: 小食 is noun or adjective about not eating a lot
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/108918/me...%E9%A3%9F/
both な and の after it are fine. some adjectives are like that (特別 for example)

(2016-11-29, 12:11 am)tokyostyle Wrote: Google searches show that 少食の上に is 10x more common so that leads to one of two conclusions. Either the な version is wrong or both versions have an implied 人の that got omitted. (ie. 少食な人の上に) In either case the meaning is clear as written.

少食な上に isn't wrong

also don't believe the number at the top of google searches without skipping forwards some pages first (preferably until you run out of pages)
(http://meta.japanese.stackexchange.com/q...ou-imagine)

turns out this is the case here too with 少食な(の)上に (searching with quotation marks) and the な version is actually a bit more common

Quote:X上にY is being used to emphasize that even among X she is more Y than that group. Thus 小食な上に ends up being something like "Even among those who eat very little ..."
上に isn't about 'among a group'
it's just 'on top of that', 'additionally'

this usage
↓↓
6 ある事柄と他の事柄とを関係させていう時に用いる。
㋐…に加えて。「ねだんが安い―に、品質が優れている」
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/17464/meaning/m0u/

Quote:Even among people who don't each much I am told I am a really slow eater.
I guess the 'I am told' in your translation comes from the って in 遅くって?
But this is actually just the same as the te-form you're used to (遅くて)
Ah, so it might actually be more like "on top of not eating much, I'm also a slow eater"? If the って isn't a quoting particle here, then is it just a way of speaking or something? I don't get why that would be 遅くて?
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て can become って when attaching to i-adjectives and other words with i-adjective like conjugation patterns (ない、たい、らしい、etc)
i guess you could call it a colloquial way of speaking
Edited: 2016-11-29, 1:35 am
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(2016-11-29, 12:31 am)Ash_S Wrote: this usage
↓↓
6 ある事柄と他の事柄とを関係させていう時に用いる。
㋐…に加えて。「ねだんが安い―に、品質が優れている」
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/17464/meaning/m0u/

Yup! That's the one.

Interestingly enough that example sentence is used for a completely different definition in my dictionary.

(2016-11-29, 12:31 am)Ash_S Wrote: I guess the 'I am told' in your translation (and the "someone else saying" in the original question) comes from the って in 遅くって? But this is actually just the same as the te-form you're used to (遅くて)

Oops, I checked out the original tweet and that makes this much more obvious.
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Awesome, thanks for the explanation guys!
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Does anyone know what うをいっ means. I suspect it's a set phrase but can't find anything on it. The context is a a chapter of One Piece in which someone has just done something ridiculous and everyone shouts "うをいっ!!!"
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Sounds like it's just an exaggerated おい.
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Hmm... I think you're right that it's serving the same role as おい but I can't shake the feeling that it has some other meaning. Like how "how're you doing?" is used the same way as "greetings" but has meaning beyond that. The use of を suggests that it is multiple words.
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After going through core for a while now I'm trying to distinguish words that seem very similar to me that might have different nuances. If you guys can kinda help explain the slight differences between any of these, it would help, thanks.

業績 実績、
交換 変更 変換 変化、
割合 割合に 割に、
衣料 衣服 衣類 服装、
他方 向こう 向かい、
成立 創立 確立 設立、
行為 行動、
行事 催し、
朗らか 軽快 陽気、
理屈 理論 原理、
浮く 浮かべる 浮かぶ、
実に 正に 誠に、
要請 要求、
一遍に 一斉に、
不満 不平
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You'll gradually come to understand and remember them when you read more. Even if I typed out the nuances in every single word that you posted, I doubt that you would remember even half of them.
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