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On the nature of "desu", "de" and "arimasu".

#51
(2018-01-21, 5:49 am)pm215 Wrote: You can also see the process going the other way with loss of phonetic distinctions (like the kou/otsu changes at the end of the 8th century, which were visible in the Man'youshu but didn't make it to the kana, or the merger of お/を circa 1000AD, which postdates the Iroha poem) -- the spoken language changes, the distinction is preserved in the writing system for a time, and then falls into confusion and disappears or is repurposed to something else. (Apparently at one point お/を spellings were used to distinguish some words which would be homophones except for a difference in pitch accent...)

More interesting points.  I wasn't sure of the timing of the ん symbol.  The kou/otsu merging gets a lot of analysis in the Man'youshuu books I'm reading.  I still don't know what the suggested pronunciations are, if any.  Vovin makes some comments, but I haven't been motivated to look up all the relevant terminology. Smile  I have been concentrating more on the grammar and the poetry itself.

Interestingly Vovin also comments on the existence not only of a true wo, but also wu.  I'd have to look again for the details, but he postulates wu as an extension of u to preserve the vowel-consonant pattern of Old Japanese.  I keep forgetting about wi and we. Smile  The loss of the written distinction is again an example of the spoken language guiding the written form.

In any case, Japanese has quite a few cases where the spoken language changed the writing over time.  There are cases the other way, as well, but from everything I've read, the spoken language usually leads the way.  That seems clear from the examples I have seen in Japanese, anyway.

(2018-01-21, 12:52 am)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(2018-01-20, 6:08 am)pm215 Wrote: No, they really don't. The spoken language came first, and the reason the writing system is the way it is is the restrictions the language has in its phonetics. And as the spoken language changes the writing system adapts to those changes.
You obviously know nothing about this...so why keep pretending?

And now it's back to the personal attacks.  If you think his statement is wrong, you can say so in a civil manner and give counterexamples or sources.
Edited: 2018-01-21, 7:51 pm
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#52
bertoni Wrote:Interestingly Vovin also comments on the existence not only of a true wo, but also wu.
I think the definition of wu is that it's not true. Like new age 'medical' wu that treats cancer with song and dance.

bertoni Wrote:I keep forgetting about wi and we.
Clearly not a Touhou fan if you're able to forget about てゐ.
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#53
(2018-01-21, 7:50 pm)bertoni Wrote: And now it's back to the personal attacks.  If you think his statement is wrong, you can say so in a civil manner and give counterexamples or sources.
Declining to debate someone because they have no knowledge of the subject isn't a personal attack.
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JapanesePod101
#54
(Yesterday, 12:54 am)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(2018-01-21, 7:50 pm)bertoni Wrote: And now it's back to the personal attacks.  If you think his statement is wrong, you can say so in a civil manner and give counterexamples or sources.
Declining to debate someone because they have no knowledge of the subject isn't a personal attack.

Except he demonstrated knowledge, with sources and other people verified it. So, does that mean your point is to not debate you because you haven't no knowledge on this subject.
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#55
(Yesterday, 1:20 am)RandomQuote Wrote: Except he demonstrated knowledge, with sources and other people verified it. So, does that mean your point is to not debate you because you haven't no knowledge on this subject.

Yeah, you got me. The reason why I'm going to stop talking to you now is because I haven't no knowledge.
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#56
(Yesterday, 1:43 am)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(Yesterday, 1:20 am)RandomQuote Wrote: Except he demonstrated knowledge, with sources and other people verified it. So, does that mean your point is to not debate you because you haven't no knowledge on this subject.

Yeah, you got me. The reason why I'm going to stop talking to you now is because I haven't no knowledge.

I've already said, that I agree with you that kana should be learned sooner than later, but good job with that deflection there, buddy. If you have any sources to backup your claim that orthography constrains phonetics, feel free to present them. Otherwise you can go back to deflecting, rather than admitting you were wrong.
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#57
(2018-01-21, 7:50 pm)bertoni Wrote: The kou/otsu merging gets a lot of analysis in the Man'youshuu books I'm reading.  I still don't know what the suggested pronunciations are, if any.  Vovin makes some comments, but I haven't been motivated to look up all the relevant terminology. Smile
Frellesvig says it's generally agreed that the kou/otsu distinctions were based on different sounds for the vowel part of the consonants, but beyond that there are competing theories. (It's inherently rather uncertain because you're doing reconstruction by comparison with the phonetics of later stages of Japanese, and with the phonetics of Early Middle Chinese which was the source of the characters used to reperesent the syllables, and which itself is a reconstruction. So I suspect we'll never get better than "this is a plausible model which fits what evidence we do have". This book is from 2010 though so perhaps research in the area has advanced.) The model F describes makes the difference be "a palatal or labial glide" -- I have no solid idea what that terminology means as a sound, but the transcriptions used are 'pwi', 'mye', 'kwo' etc.

I have a copy of Ladefoged's _Vowels and Consonants_ -- some day I will work through it properly with the accompanying CD and match up the terminology to sounds,learn IPA, etc. Some day :-)
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#58
(Yesterday, 12:54 am)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(2018-01-21, 7:50 pm)bertoni Wrote: And now it's back to the personal attacks.  If you think his statement is wrong, you can say so in a civil manner and give counterexamples or sources.
Declining to debate someone because they have no knowledge of the subject isn't a personal attack.

The "you know nothing" part was both a lie and a personal attack.

(2018-01-21, 11:18 pm)sholum Wrote:
bertoni Wrote:Interestingly Vovin also comments on the existence not only of a true wo, but also wu.
I think the definition of wu is that it's not true. Like new age 'medical' wu that treats cancer with song and dance.

bertoni Wrote:I keep forgetting about wi and we.
Clearly not a Touhou fan if you're able to forget about てゐ.

I'm definitely reading the Man'youshuu more for fun and to enjoy the poetry rather than all the history.  I will try to look up the way that Vovin posits the pronounced "wu", but if my memory is correct, it had to do with the conjugation of some verbs.  In this case, I should have said "commented on the possible existence" to be more clear.  I don't know the level of certainty involved.

As far as wi and we, I mean that I don't remember any history (dates, etc) of the changes involved.
Edited: 4 hours ago
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