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Comfort Women - Educated Opinions?

#26
Wow, the mayor of the second biggest city in Japan, its prime minister, the mayor of the 3rd biggest city in Japan, and the people who write textbooks sure are fringe members of society who do not have a representative role whatsoever! 49% of the prefecture asaembly is a fringe group? Look up comfort women or nanking in Japanese, get conspiracy theories as the first result, totally not representative

I think that calling historical facts 'a debate' and expecting them to disappear is the government rewriting history. Which is what the government *is* doing. Idk, maybe read the news or talk to people here before going on your own ideological tirade that shapes your opinion of it? Idk. i'm not sure what you want to see or what you're arguing that has anything to do with the actual comfort women debate here.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 4:09 am
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#27
(2017-11-30, 3:57 am)Zgarbas Wrote: Wow, the mayor of the second biggest city in Japan, its prime minister, the mayor of the 3rd biggest city in Japan.
Okay, it's become obvious that the only people you are capable of discussing politics with are the people who agree with you 100%. So I'll leave you to it. Have fun confirming each others delusions.
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#28
I do ngage in sarcasm when the person I'm 'discussing' with makes silly claims like mayors, PMs and major local parties are not representative of the population, yes. Those are major political figures that have made very obvious and official statements in the recent past, I am not sure where my delusions would kick in.

the bubble argument is a cute cop-out, but irrelevant in this case.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 4:54 am
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#29
The major of Osaka cutting ties with San Francisco over comfort women is about as mainstream as it gets.

But in general, for Japan, you really don't have to look much further than a lot of the elderly, male, right-wing politicians to find comfort women denial.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 6:33 am
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#30
(2017-11-30, 6:30 am)ryuudou Wrote: The major of Osaka cutting ties with San Francisco over comfort women is about as mainstream as it gets.

But in general, for Japan, you really don't have to look much further than a lot of the elderly, male, right-wing politicians to find comfort women denial.

What exactly were these "ties" between Osaka and San Francisco anyway?  Will the inhabitants of the two cities even notice any difference now that these "ties" have been cut?
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#31
(2017-11-30, 4:52 am)Zgarbas Wrote: I do ngage in sarcasm when the person I'm 'discussing' with makes silly claims like mayors, PMs and major local parties are not representative of the population, yes.
The problem isn't your sarcasm, I like sarcasm. Use it all the time. The problem is that you didn't engage in reading my post before responding to it. I addressed you childish claims that Shinzo Abe denies the existence of comfort women.

Even though I shouldn't have had to...it's an absurd notion. How the Hell does someone who paid reparations to Korean comfort women deny their existence?

I can't have a conversation with someone who's only interested in talking. Read. Then talk. Then read again. Then talk again. That's the only way this can work.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 7:49 am
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#32
Stansfield123, thank you for debating in good faith.

(2017-11-30, 1:42 am)Stansfield123 Wrote: I asked for proof that there's a "waive of denial among mainstream politicians and media". You provided me with one ex mayor (who is nowhere near mainstream, he's in a small, fringe party), and then your second example doesn't even come close to denying any historical facts.

I did preface by saying I was too lazy to search for more quotes.  I chose the mayor of Osaka and the prime minister of Japan because they are from different parties; combined, they represent a pretty large swath of Japanese political thought.  I agree it's not the whole of Japanese political thought, but you can't call it fringe.

Their statements are different in nature from each other, and I agree with you that neither denies the existence of comfort women, but both cast doubt on the culpability of the Japanese (government or army or whoever).  They question whether the women were coerced.  I would call that denialism.

Here's one more, Deputy Foreign Minister Shinsuke Sugiyama in 2016 telling the UN there's no evidence the women were coerced.  This would be after the 2015 deal between Abe and Park.  That's textbook denialism, and this guy is textbook a representative of the nation of Japan.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 8:45 am
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#33
How? The same way that they push a nationalist agenda while strenghening ties to the US. Abe is a very talented politician whp lnows how to balance these things.

On the Japanese side, the reparations are there to show their desire for cooperation, dedication to UN resolution and international calls for apology, and hopefully a gesture to have them shut up and leave the topic alone. As he stated in 2015, the reparations should be the end of the matter. Sure, he got critiised for 'caving in', but to my knowledge he has never actually acknowledged any wrongdoing on the Japanese side, presenting the reparations as a show of good faith in Korean-Japanese relations.

However, in national media official statements dumb down the extent, impact, and consent of the matter. Wording is important, and using vague terms such as 'the comfort women debate' is how they get past it. lack of national polls and academic/journalistic censorship is a soft power method to enforce that. Isn't it weird how Japan has national polls for everything under the sun, but the only opinion polls about comfort women from Japan are done abroad and always in a comparative perspective? Many politicians are allowed to freely contest the existence of comfort women using whatever arguments they have handy, yet one misquote on asahi's side some 10 years ago is enough to demand an official apology (and death threats to the journalists). The imbalance is media, discourse, and coverage is obvious to both sides of the 'debate', though they read it differently (deniers use the media silence as proof that comfort women are just regular prostitutes, other people just shut up because things aren't getting any better).

I did read your posts, it's just that I don't feel like making a step-by-step reference check when it seems on my side that you're doing vague googling to fact-check, and frankly, it's wrong. To start with the obvious, Yoshimura was only recently re-elected (you call him a former mayor), his party is (albeit local) a majority in one of Japan's main cities. Sure, the zaitokukai only counts 15.000 members or so and the numbers have been dwindling after they started getting fines for the awful things they pull, but they are a very visible minority in our everyday lives, and I don't think the elementary schoolchildren they bully care that they're not a representative sample of the population: ignoring the fact that zainichi koreans see a lot of discrimination that does not come from active hate groups. I think you're severely underestimating the ethnic conflicts here, and the extent of Japan's conservatism in that direction. It's not as flashy as Le Pen, which is why it works.

I think your points on how much history matters and to what extent a government should regulate are reasonable as a general topic of discussion, but it ignores the Japanese side of it. Plus, I find your personal interpretation of what led to wartime comfort women kind of sketchy, since it had more to do with the idea that men need to release sexual energy to prevent sickness than with liberalism imo (I mean, even the denialists agree that that was a thing. They just state it was necessary, uncoerced, and generously financially compensated.)

I'm not particularly invested in the comfort women issue, but you can't really go around without hearing about it extensively. I am by no means an expert on the matter or anything and I do apologise if I came off as condescending. It's just that it's hard to answer point by point when your conversational partner seems to be have a well-formed yet not particularly informed opinion on the matter (based on other situations, I guess. Every country has its demons.)
Edited: 2017-11-30, 10:13 pm
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#34
(2017-11-30, 6:47 am)phil321 Wrote:
(2017-11-30, 6:30 am)ryuudou Wrote: The major of Osaka cutting ties with San Francisco over comfort women is about as mainstream as it gets.

But in general, for Japan, you really don't have to look much further than a lot of the elderly, male, right-wing politicians to find comfort women denial.

What exactly were these "ties" between Osaka and San Francisco anyway?  Will the inhabitants of the two cities even notice any difference now that these "ties" have been cut?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_..._Francisco
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#35
Treating people like sexual slaves is horrible but even so, what is worse: perhaps painful intercourse, humiliation and being held against your will OR being gunned down, beheaded or torn apart. War is a horrible affair and has its price in blood but women and children are still shielded from the horrors men are expected to face. If they weren't female, they wouldn't have ended up as cruel comfort for others; they would have simply executed.

People need to move on and rape needs to stop being seen as worse than murder, because it's fu cking not and never will be. All this bul lshit does is underscore just how little people actually care about male suffering in wartime. The only war memorials we have for the soldiers is for their service, for their utility. Not for their actual suffering and lives given to the war machine. No, they were merely machinegun fodder.

I mean, look at this:
https://www.awm.gov.au/visit/exhibitions...es/landing
"A difficult landing" A difficult f ucking landing? Young men and boys were sent to the slaughter and that's all we remark.

Hell, the Burma railroad is in full use today and we don't see governments trying to get it shut down for being offensive due to the war crimes involved. So in conclusion, yeah, rape is horrible but Korea needs to get over it and move on.
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#36
(2017-11-30, 10:40 am)mintou Wrote: Treating people like sexual slaves is horrible but even so, what is worse: perhaps painful intercourse, humiliation and being held against your will OR being gunned down, beheaded or torn apart. War is a horrible affair and has its price in blood but women and children are still shielded from the horrors men are expected to face. If they weren't female, they wouldn't have ended up as cruel comfort for others; they would have simply executed.

I don't think anyone here is trying to make light of the suffering of the soldiers. But their suffering is not what the thread OP was asking about. And, if death is your measuring stick, then please know that most comfort women died "in service". Hopefully none of us ever have to pick between a straight execution or being raped to death, but you certainly can't believe the latter to be better than murder.

No one is shielded from war.
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#37
Dude, either swear or don’t swear, but putting spaces in the middle of the words just makes it hard to read. (Unless there’s a swear filter on here that I don’t know about)

P.S. because criticizing someone’s typing habits is undeniably petty of me, I’ll just say that everyone knows about the sacrifice of soldiers and it is definitely not overlooked.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 12:00 pm
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#38

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#39
(2017-11-30, 6:47 am)phil321 Wrote:
(2017-11-30, 6:30 am)ryuudou Wrote: The major of Osaka cutting ties with San Francisco over comfort women is about as mainstream as it gets.

But in general, for Japan, you really don't have to look much further than a lot of the elderly, male, right-wing politicians to find comfort women denial.

What exactly were these "ties" between Osaka and San Francisco anyway?  Will the inhabitants of the two cities even notice any difference now that these "ties" have been cut?

The ties here don't matter as much as the symbolism of major cities willing to sever them (one that has existed for over 60 years) over this issue.
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#40
If they really honestly don't think the women were forced, then they should just full on apologize and memorialize all the bad things that were done, including what happened to all the Koreans just by virtue of being made second class citizens even if they were not killed, and then the Korean case on the ianfu will start to look fishy because obviously the Japanese couldn't in that scenario be accused of having a tendency to sweep things under the rug.
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#41
(2017-11-30, 1:42 am)Stansfield12 Wrote:
(2017-11-29, 8:12 pm)sokino Wrote: Also, relevant:

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/...tatue.html

Pretty mainstream, no? Japan ends sister city relationship with San Francisco over a statue for comfort women.

It would be, if it was true. If this was Japan (the Japanese Government, lead by Shinzo Abe) doing this, it would be mainstream.

But it's not. "Japan" has nothing to do with this. It's the mayor of Osaka, belonging to the same fringe party from your first example. Way outside mainstream Japanese politics.


I dunno, seems to me you have a weird metric of what's considered "mainstream" or not. Because if the Mayor of the third largest city in Japan is doing this and the CHIEF CABINET SECRETARY (did you miss that part in the article?) is cosigning it (- plus all the other officials doing similar things that others have detailed - isn't somewhat representative of the attitude of many in Japanese government I don't even know what to tell you. Seems like you'll only accept it as mainstream if Abe himself comes right out and expllicitly says it no matter how many other government representatives are doing the same.
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#42
(2017-11-30, 11:58 am)torisan Wrote: Dude, either swear or don’t swear, but putting spaces in the middle of the words just makes it hard to read. (Unless there’s a swear filter on here that I don’t know about)

There's a swear filter in place. Bypassing it in such a manner is against the rules and I would advise @mintou fix his post to escape potential judgement.

Arguing within the rules is in your own interest, since no one can complain about your conduct and it removes justification for a temp ban.


@sokino
I think Stansfield is asking for proof that regular Japanese think this way. Politicians are not regular people, even when they're elected officials, so using them as proof isn't very convincing.
Imagine if the regular American opinion was completely represented by a Clinton or Bush. Or if you're not familiar with American political dynasties, then imagine a powerful political family or group in your own country and try applying some of their controversial stances as the majority opinion of your people.

And as Zgarbas already mentioned, this topic is oddly lacking from the numerous opinion polls that the Japanese do.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 1:55 pm
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#43
(2017-11-30, 1:18 pm)sokino Wrote: Seems like you'll only accept it as mainstream if Abe himself comes right out and expllicitly says it no matter how many other government representatives are doing the same.
Not at all. If you quote any current Japanese government representative denying the existence of comfort women, I'll accept it as valid evidence. It doesn't have to be Abe.

It would be especially good if it was Abe, because you PERSONALLY NAMED HIM as a denier, but, by all means, name just one person currently in his employment, who explicitly denied the existence of comfort women. That would be a very good start, and I would thank you for it, because it would open my eyes to something I'm currently not aware of.

And yes, the "explicitly" part is a requirement. "Figurative" (in other words, things that only exist in your interpretation) denials won't get the job done.
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#44
here you go.

have one in english.
Edited: 2017-11-30, 9:11 pm
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#45
Hello: I registered and contributed a long and detailed post about the comfort women offering evidence that they had not been kidnapped by the Japanese army -- a couple of days ago, but my post is no longer up. POUF! . I could not even log in, so re-registered to post this message. To post here do I have to be a member of kanji koohii organization or have some other credentials . If so, wish I'd known. I worked hard on that post
Edited: 2017-12-03, 12:02 pm
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#46
@Earth2Earth This forum is a Japanese Language Learning forum. Members discuss other topics in the so called "Off topic" forum. New registered users who immediately get involved in those discussions, as far as I am concerned are spammers. I am the admin, I clicked "Purge Spammer". POUF! as you said.

Sorry if you "worked hard" on this post, to me you could just be a random bot trying to manipulate people 's opinions. Personally I'd never write such a long post without saving it elsewhere.

In any case, this topic will probably be closed soon if it attracts more first time posters. People who register solely for Off topci discussions are not welcome. This is a language learning forum.
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#47
(2017-12-03, 11:51 am)Earth2Earth Wrote: (...)  or have some other credentials . (...)

It should be so. Actually I'm going to look into the board settings so Off Topic is not avaialbe to first time posters and/or completely hidden from guest visitors.
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#48
(2017-12-03, 1:03 pm)ファブリス Wrote: @Earth2Earth This forum is a Japanese Language Learning forum. Members discuss other topics in the so called "Off topic" forum. New registered users who immediately get involved in those discussions, as far as I am concerned are spammers. I am the admin, I clicked "Purge Spammer". POUF! as you said.

Sorry if you "worked hard" on this post, to me you could just be a random bot trying to manipulate people 's opinions. Personally I'd never write such a long post without saving it elsewhere.

In any case, this topic will probably be closed soon if it attracts more first time posters. People who register solely for Off topci discussions are not welcome. This is a language learning forum.

Thanks very much for taking the time to explain.  Smile   I've researched this comfort women issue for a number of years. Someone had directed me to your site this week, and that is why I posted a comment. Had I known you had to be a member of Kanji Koohi, I would not have commented on your forum. Apologies. And no worries, I did save the contents of my post.  Wink Best of luck to your group on learning Nihongo!
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#49
On the other hand -if Fabrice has no objections, of course-, I'd really like to have the link posted here should you publish it elsewhere ;-).
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#50
(2017-12-03, 9:04 pm)faneca Wrote: On the other hand -if Fabrice has no objections, of course-, I'd really like to have the link posted here should you publish it elsewhere ;-).

Hello Faneca, looks like I'm still active for the moment.  My post here was a composite of the comments I had made earlier on the SF Gate (San Francisco Chronicle) site regarding suspension of city sister relations between Osaka and SF. If you wade throughout the more recent of 595 posts there you will get the gist of what I said here, though I added some material here and re-worked other comments. Here is the site:   http://m.sfgate.com/news/articleComments...381792.php    Take care all and 勉強してください
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