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I started the Shinkanzen Master N2 Grammar book and had some questions

#1
I'll be referencing this picture: https://i.imgur.com/TDYWvvg.png

For #1 it seems like it could be both b and c?

#2 seems like all 3 could work

#3 I'm not sure either

#4 I thought it was b but the explanation of とたん says that something unexpected happens which is then maybe a?

#5 Same as above, I thought it would be c then?

#6 Same as above, the logical answer would be b but isn't that expected?

#7 The way they explain かと思うと doesn't really make sense to me so I'm not sure. Something like right after, a big change happens so would it be c?

#8 and #9 I don't get the way they explain 〜か〜ないかのうちに


#10 I feel like it could be a or c

#11 I feel like I kinda understand ようとしている so would it be c?

#12 Same as above, would it be b?

#13 I feel like all 3 could work

#14 Same thing, not sure

#15 I feel like it would be b but I'm not sure

#16 I feel like all 3 could work

#17 I think it's b or c but aren't they pretty much the same?

#18 This one was where you had 4 blanks and have to put the sentence parts in correct order. Couldn't it also be 今回は利用者の満足度に対する新しいサービスについて調査します? Like "This time, we are investigating about a new service regarding the satisfaction of the users" or something.

#19 I thought the 並んでまで should have been 並ぶまで

Thanks for the help.
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#2
Edit: Deleted my responses because I'M BAD AT JAPANESE.
Edited: 2017-10-10, 3:22 pm
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#3
I learn grammar by drilling examples through Anki so most of my answers are more "does this feel right?" rather than actual hard explanations so take some of this with a grain of salt. Don't take my explanations as gospel, as again this is just how I think about the grammar points based on my learning. Also please excuse my liberal translations for some of this just wanted to get my ideas across. Hope this helps though.

I went through and answered everything to the best of my knowledge before checking my answers online. I got #2 initially wrong and it gave me the most trouble. I initially chose C but after reading the explanation for the grammar point A makes the most sense. I skipped 18 and 19 because I don't know how to explain them... but I would focus on building up pattern recognition for grammatical phrases and relying on your particle knowledge.

1: B
Because 〜際に is usually for special non-daily things it has a more formal feel. So A and C doesn't make sense here. 大掃除 is usually a once a year thing in japan so a special occasion of sorts.

2. A
This one was particularly hard imo. B doesn't make sense cause it doesn't fit the overall feel of being "formal" with 〜際に as it's feels like a more casual phrase. C was my initial answer but 〜際に is temporal so imo "お一人様の" doesn't fit cause it's more a situation.

3. C
〜あたりまして is used when you want to say "because of this situation I am taking X action", so the latter is always some specific action based on the previous situation so A and B don't fit.

4. A
I don't have a good reason for this, for me B seems odd to say "When i studied i immediately fell asleep" just doesn't make sense as a sentence. Same thing with C.

5.C
A and B are both things in progress which you don't use with 〜途端.

6.B
A is talking about doing something, it's not unexpected but more a thought. C is just a normal thing you might do not really unexpected. B doesn't seem to be an unexpected outcome of the train reaching the station, but it's something that doesn't happen all the time so C fits more here (a ton of people don't rush the train all the time basically).

7.C
Unexpected things follow 〜かと思うと so C fits the best out of all the answers.

8.A
Don't really have good explanation here... the way i think about it is B and C doesn't make sense cause it's an in progress action where the grammar point is talking more about just as X action finishes something happens. A is saying "just as he learned his work" so the action is completed.


9. B. 
I don't have good reasons for why B but A and C doesn't make sense from a situational perspective of taking a test imo.

10. A.
Don't have a good explanation for this, but C feels really odd to me. If C said "お金が残っている" i think it would work. B is just way off, would make more sense if you're using 〜時.

11.C. 
I think it's best to break up this point to be verbよう+としていた. So the second portion you can always think "action is in progress" and the verbよう being the volitional action. So volitional action in progress... at least that's how i kind of think of it. Don't have good reasons on why it's not A and B though.

12.A. 
It's not B cause this grammar point is more for specific moments, while B is just talking about the whole day not a given moment of time. Similar reasoning for C. A is using 間も無く so it's specifying a moment in time.

13.B
〜つつ is used when a situation is changing. X thing is undergoing change. With that in mind A doesn't work cause you're in progress of doing 就活 it's not a changing situation. Same thing with C. B is you're in progress of recovering your 体力 so your 体力 is changing.

14. A. 
Don't have a good explanation here. C just sounds like gibberish to me though.

15. B
Best to think of this as 〜ながら but also as a continuous action (think of waving your hand = continuous action vs wearing clothes). Given that A and C just don't make sense.

16. A
B doesn't make sense cause sitting isn't a continuous action. You sit and you're done, that's it, you're not continually trying to sit (which is a hilarious thing to imagine). same as C.

17. C
〜つつ as far as i've seen it isn't used for making suggestions for actions so B doesn't feel right to me here. C is more general "as x happens x" so it fits better.
Edited: 2017-10-10, 12:42 am
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#4
I always thought the Shinkanzen books could explain things better.  I.e., the answers should have some footnotes with explanations.  Also they need translations of the example sentences into English (as well as Chinese and Korean).

This Japanese guy who does tutoring in Japanese on the side told me he tells his students not to use the Shinkanzen books precisely because they don't provide English translations so the student is often left floundering about, unsure of whether he is interpreting the sentence correctly.

I worked through Shinkanzen N4 and had to write in a lot of English translations that I had to research using other books.  I won't be using Shinanzen N3.
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#5
Thanks for the replies. I always heard that Shinkanzen was the way to go. What's a good way to study reading and grammar then?
Edited: 2017-10-10, 9:56 am
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#6
learningkanji, it sounds like you might not be in possession of the answer key? My book has an answer key (別冊 - 解答) at the very end.

(2017-10-09, 9:26 pm)learningkanji Wrote: #18 This one was where you had 4 blanks and have to put the sentence parts in correct order. Couldn't it also be 今回は利用者の満足度に対する新しいサービスについて調査します? Like "This time, we are investigating about a new service regarding the satisfaction of the users" or something.

The alternative you propose doesn't quite make sense to my ear. Maybe if it didn't have the 度 in 満足度?

(2017-10-09, 9:26 pm)learningkanji Wrote: #19 I thought the 並んでまで should have been 並ぶまで

This is a standard grammatical construction and it takes the -te form. additional source

(2017-10-10, 4:09 am)phil321 Wrote: This Japanese guy who does tutoring in Japanese on the side told me he tells his students not to use the Shinkanzen books precisely because they don't provide English translations so the student is often left floundering about, unsure of whether he is interpreting the sentence correctly.

Oh my. I love the Shinkanzen grammar books. I have only used N3 and up though. My experience with language acquisition has been that it's better to get away from relying on English translations as quickly as possible. It's certainly true that Shinkanzen is not completely self-contained for me - I've found myself online asking about specific questions more than once - but I feel like forcing myself to consume Japanese-only content drastically improved my understanding. It was hard at first. Shinkanzen is picky. It's hard for me to understand a tutor telling someone not to use the books, though. If I had a tutor, why wouldn't they just offer to answer my Shinkanzen questions? More tutoring work for them!

(2017-10-10, 9:55 am)learningkanji Wrote: Thanks for the replies. I always heard that Shinkanzen was the way to go. What's a good way to study reading and grammar then?

Some people use Soumatome. I have heard that that series has English explanations, but also that it's not as rigorous. I've never tried it myself though.
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#7
My academic japanese is quite rusty, so take my answers with a grain of salt.
and I'm also trying to test myself:

1. b.
a. and c. are not special occasions.
際に is also used on very formal situations (ie: employee to cutomers)

2. c.
a. and b. are not special occasions/cases. You usually go to a restaurant to have lunch or dinner.
It doesn't make sense to say that.
The waiter is asking you to use a specific table for a particular reason. Only c. expresses that reason.

3. c.
Don't know about that form, but it sounds quite formal to me.
a. and b. expresses your own feelings. c. expresses an action you'll do on a specific occasion.

4. b.
a. is wrong because of が. You are sleepy, not your study.
c. doesn't seem right because I don't think you can have ていた with とたん

5. c.
It is the only answer that expresses a finished and short action.

6. b.
uncontrollable action

7. c.
something unexpected
a. is something expected
b. is a durable action, doesn't make sense with the initial sentence.

18. 今回は利用者の満足度に対する新しいサービスについての調査します。
に対する:in response to a demand, to satisfy a request/condition
について:about something

8. a.
It is the only answer that make sense to me.
Wether he had time to learn his work or not, he already quit his job.

9. b.
same here.
If the initial sentence was something like 早く教室を出て行った。 or 十分以内に教室を出ていった。I would have chosen a. or c.

10. a.
b. and c. don't describe a state.
If it was 給料がある instead of もらう, I would have hesitated, or maybe both would have been correct.
With 残る it sounds weird to me even if I had 残っている instead, because it sounds like the action in the main clause would have an impact on that state so it wouldn't hold true anymore.
With お金が残る・残っている, I would have use から instead of うちに, but that just how I see things.

11. c.
means "was about to be born"
a. would mean something like "I was assuming the baby to be born", I think.
b. doesn't make any sense to me and I don't think it is grammaticaly correct.

12. a.
same thing here "is about to...". The hint is given by 間もなく
I don't think you can say "it is about to rain today", sounds weird. But you would rather say "it is going to rain today" or "it will rain today". But hey, my english sucks too so... xD

13. b.
expresses an action that implies a change of state.
you cannot use つつ with everyday action like 食べる

14. a.
seems to be the most common form.
I don't think you can have てい+つつ.
c. by itself expresses the same idea of state changing (慣れるようになっていく)...doubling it with つつある doesn't seem a great idea.

15. b.
expresses a concurrent action.
a. and c. expresses a result/conclusion.

16. a.
is a continuous action, the others are not.

17. c.
b. sounds too formal to be used in that kind of sentence, and I don't think つつ works well with a command sentence.

Edit: after reading again, I think I got it wrong on #18.
A survey about customers satisfaction makes more sense than a survey about new services.
Also after a quick google check #2A and #4A seems to be the right answers
Edited: 2017-10-11, 11:48 am
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#8
(2017-10-10, 12:20 pm)satogaeru Wrote:
(2017-10-09, 9:26 pm)learningkanji Wrote: #19 I thought the 並んでまで should have been 並ぶまで

This is a standard grammatical construction and it takes the -te form.  additional source

(2017-10-10, 4:09 am)phil321 Wrote: This Japanese guy who does tutoring in Japanese on the side told me he tells his students not to use the Shinkanzen books precisely because they don't provide English translations so the student is often left floundering about, unsure of whether he is interpreting the sentence correctly.

Oh my.  I love the Shinkanzen grammar books.  I have only used N3 and up though.  My experience with language acquisition has been that it's better to get away from relying on English translations as quickly as possible.  It's certainly true that Shinkanzen is not completely self-contained for me - I've found myself online asking about specific questions more than once - but I feel like forcing myself to consume Japanese-only content drastically improved my understanding.  It was hard at first.  Shinkanzen is picky.  It's hard for me to understand a tutor telling someone not to use the books, though.  If I had a tutor, why wouldn't they just offer to answer my Shinkanzen questions?  More tutoring work for them!

So the source says 並んでまで is N1 level? I wonder why it's in an N2 level book.

Also how did you deal with not knowing what the Shinkanzen explanations meant? What methods did you use to understand better?




Thanks for all the explanations everyone, it helps a lot.
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#9
(2017-10-10, 12:20 pm)satogaeru Wrote: learningkanji, it sounds like you might not be in possession of the answer key?  My book has an answer key (別冊 - 解答) at the very end.

(2017-10-09, 9:26 pm)learningkanji Wrote: #18 This one was where you had 4 blanks and have to put the sentence parts in correct order. Couldn't it also be 今回は利用者の満足度に対する新しいサービスについて調査します? Like "This time, we are investigating about a new service regarding the satisfaction of the users" or something.

The alternative you propose doesn't quite make sense to my ear.  Maybe if it didn't have the 度 in 満足度?

(2017-10-09, 9:26 pm)learningkanji Wrote: #19 I thought the 並んでまで should have been 並ぶまで

This is a standard grammatical construction and it takes the -te form.  additional source

(2017-10-10, 4:09 am)phil321 Wrote: This Japanese guy who does tutoring in Japanese on the side told me he tells his students not to use the Shinkanzen books precisely because they don't provide English translations so the student is often left floundering about, unsure of whether he is interpreting the sentence correctly.

Oh my.  I love the Shinkanzen grammar books.  I have only used N3 and up though.  My experience with language acquisition has been that it's better to get away from relying on English translations as quickly as possible.  It's certainly true that Shinkanzen is not completely self-contained for me - I've found myself online asking about specific questions more than once - but I feel like forcing myself to consume Japanese-only content drastically improved my understanding.  It was hard at first.  Shinkanzen is picky.  It's hard for me to understand a tutor telling someone not to use the books, though.  If I had a tutor, why wouldn't they just offer to answer my Shinkanzen questions?  More tutoring work for them!
Except that if there are no English translations misunderstandings may occur which impede the learning process.  You may think you know the answer buy you may be wrong.

Here is an example:  when my tutor was flipping through my N4 shinkanzen book he noticed I had written that a sentence means "a little more X".  He said, No, it means "one more X".  He explained why he was right.  So because there was no English translation and I had to make up my own, I made an error in interpreting what the Japanese means.
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#10
(2017-10-11, 5:42 am)phil321 Wrote: Except that if there are no English translations misunderstandings may occur which impede the learning process.  You may think you know the answer buy you may be wrong.

Here is an example:  when my tutor was flipping through my N4 shinkanzen book he noticed I had written that a sentence means "a little more X".  He said, No, it means "one more X".  He explained why he was right.  So because there was no English translation and I had to make up my own, I made an error in interpreting what the Japanese means.

Ah. I understand that.

I suspect we're coming at this from two different directions. The student's level and the goal matter. I could totally understand the tutor saying, "Don't learn basic Japanese grammar from a test prep manual. Use a textbook that is specifically designed for establishing foundational knowledge." That is definitely not what Shinkanzen is good for.

But with that foundational knowledge established, I still think that if a student is prepping for the JLPT, the Shinkanzen Master books are excellent. Speaking only from my own experience, of course. The first Shinkanzen I used was N3, and I picked it up to prep for N2. I knew most of the grammar points in the N3 but not to the depth that Shinkanzen covered them. I was very happy to have picked that manual up.
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#11
I missed this post.

(2017-10-10, 10:46 pm)learningkanji Wrote: So the source says 並んでまで is N1 level? I wonder why it's in an N2 level book.

Dunno. They probably just messed up. But on the other hand I don't know that there's a definitive list of grammar points per level.


(2017-10-10, 10:46 pm)learningkanji Wrote: Also how did you deal with not knowing what the Shinkanzen explanations meant? What methods did you use to understand better?

Other than posting my questions to forums, which seems like a perfectly legitimate method...
  • The N3 book includes explanations in English. The N2 does not, but uses the same explanation structure as the N3. So when I started the N2, I already had a feel for how they were going to explain things.
  • (This is maybe less a method and more an observation) I had a hard time with the first lesson of the N2 book. But at N2 level (and from what I can tell, even more at N1 level), the "grammar points" start shifting away from being actual grammar points and more like slightly different ways to say something you already know how to say, sometimes with slightly different nuance. So for example, opening at random to lesson 10, its title is ~や~など, which you already know how to do. And indeed, that is all the lesson includes.
  • If neither of those things gave me a leg up, I asked my buddy Google. Because this is test prep, there are oodles of websites out there with brief explanations of grammar points. I could corroborate my understanding and then go back to the drill questions and see if my understanding held up.
  • You can sometimes Google the drill sentences themselves to find other people's questions and answers about the sentences. (But sometimes those questions and answers were not in a language I understood. And often the questions and answers were on points I wasn't looking for help with.)
  • You can pay people on services like italki to tutor your test prep. I have not tried this.
Assuming your ultimate goal is to understand Japanese (rather than just pass JLPT), I would also say: read as much native Japanese material as you are able to, as soon as you are able. Seeing the grammar in context is so helpful. This is not a quick fix for test prep, though.
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#12
I see thanks. I always wanted to read more but it's hard to find Japanese books especially ones that would be interesting for me since you don't know what a book is like until you start reading it.
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#13
Have you seen the 日本語の森 videos on youtube? They're a good addition to going through shinkanzen masters and for additional explanations.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVx6RFa...fAsD2zz16w
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#14
Ya I have. I stopped for some reason but I should start watching them again.
Edited: 2017-10-11, 10:29 pm
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#15
Does anyone have the answer key for N2 grammar and reading?
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#16
I was about to make a forum post just like yours. OTL I started doing the quizzes, but kept getting things wrong and feel extremely defeated. Even with the official JLPT practice test, I feel like I can't "think" the way the test wants me to. When I check my answers, I feel like screaming, "How am I supposed to know that?! That answer is weird!"

But based on people's answers to your questions (a lot of which were the same as mine), I guess I just don't truly understand the grammar or vocab. I really have to study even more to have a solid, unshakeable understanding of sentence structure.

I prefer Nihongo no Mori, but thought I could absorb more info from a textbook (Shin Kanzen Master) faster than a video, but I guess I need to rethink my strategy. @_@; Sorry for the rant.
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#17
(2017-10-14, 3:19 pm)haley_usa Wrote: I was about to make a forum post just like yours. OTL I started doing the quizzes, but kept getting things wrong and feel extremely defeated. Even with the official JLPT practice test, I feel like I can't "think" the way the test wants me to. When I check my answers, I feel like screaming, "How am I supposed to know that?! That answer is weird!"

But based on people's answers to your questions (a lot of which were the same as mine), I guess I just don't truly understand the grammar or vocab. I really have to study even more to have a solid, unshakeable understanding of sentence structure.

I prefer Nihongo no Mori, but thought I could absorb more info from a textbook (Shin Kanzen Master) faster than a video, but I guess I need to rethink my strategy. @_@; Sorry for the rant.

I did pretty decent on the official practice test but when I started the grammar in the book, some of it was very confusing. I found this site which explains grammar in English too if you wanna try it: http://www.jgram.org/pages/viewList.php?lv=2

I was really frustrated too so I stopped studying until I wasn't as overwhelmed and when I went back, my mind was more clear and things started to make more sense. I would say use Nihongo no Mori and the books.
Edited: 2017-10-14, 4:34 pm
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