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How many sentences?

#1
Ok, so I was watching this youtuber and he talks about his experience learning the Japanese language.
He seems fluent or at least he is very good, and he followed the well known method where you immerse yourself with the language by reading and listening all the time and you do sentence mining too. (but I don't want the thread to be about "that" guy who this youtuber follows... this is why I'm providing no links asd )
This youtuber says that after he was already fluent he got tired of the Japaese language and at that time he was still doing 2 hours of reps a day. He also says that he had 10k sentences.
He keep saying that srs to him is just the cherry on top but to be sincere 2 hours seems quite a lot to me and surely not "just the cherry on top", so I wondered how much does Anki played in his ability to became fluent.

And you guys, how much time do you spend daily doing reps?
Also, how much useful do you think Anki is in the process of reaching high levels at the language?
I'm asking because after all the experimenting done in the last months I'm finally starting a new sentence deck and I wonder how much to expect from it both in term of work needed and in term of improvements in my Japanese.
I know we talked a lot of times about this subject and by now I must know, but it's like more than a year that my study routine consist only of a lot of reading and listening. So I've sort of forgotten the usefulness (or lack of) of Anki and I wonder how much I'm losing by not SRSing sentences.
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#2
Just in my own experience...

I also was greatly inspired by "that" guy and followed the spirit of his method.
I got some good use out of Anki in the beginning (good vocab growth and retention) but quickly grew to find it too time consuming and no longer effective/worth it, and quit to focus on just immersion. (EDIT: I had a few hundred mined sentences and I'm not sure but I was probably doing 30+ mins of reviews a day when I decided screw it (deck is long deleted))

Recently I've tinkered with Anki again for learning Korean which I'm a beginner at, and am finding it useful and worth it for now. I make adding cards as painless as possible (lots of copy-paste, and from only really enjoyable things) and keep reviews to 10-15 mins a day, don't sweat about missing a day. I'll probably get a nice foundation of vocab with it and then quit to focus more on input like I did for Japanese. So yeah. Totally not a necessary thing if you start to find it painful like I did.
Edited: 2017-10-04, 10:52 am
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#3
My feeling is that anki is great at the beginning for learning enough vocabulary to start reading.  I think once you get to be able to read things, anki should take a back seat to reading, but can still be useful.  Then, as you get more advanced, rare words don't pop up enough to be learned easily, so anki can help here too.  For instance, there are still words in my L1 that I have to look up from time to time.  If I were to add these words to anki, I would learn them much faster than encountering them in reading.

My breakdown would be something like
Total n00b:            Anki 100% / Reading 0%
Beginner:               Anki 80% / Reading 20%
Intermediate:         Anki 40% / Reading 60%
Advanced:              Anki 10% / Reading 90%
Fluent and Beyond: Anki 1%  / Reading 99%
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#4
are you talking about Matt and his AJATT experience??? His intonation is great. I have a lot of cards sometimes but it doesn't take long... definitely not 2 hours because I use the MCD format.

ANYWAYS if you are talking about matt one of the things i noticed him saying was that he wasn't really following AJATT in that he wasn't being picky about the sentences that he adds to anki. ajatt advocates being picky and deleting stuff if you have any doubts so it's enjoyable and not tortuous
Edited: 2017-10-04, 4:40 pm
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#5
What about listening? Because with reading you can always check a dictionary if you don't remember what a word means, and there are kanji to help. Even if you don't remember what a word means, you can infer it by just looking at the kanji and if you have already seen the word before you'll remember its meaning much easier thanks to kanji (this at last in my own experience).

But listening has no kanji and it's unpractical to pause each time to check a word's meaning. In theory reading will reinforce listening too, but this reinforcement is not that strong because I keep linking meaning to the written form so there is this added layer and when I listen to that same word I may not be able to recall its meaning.

So, what about fluency in listening? Could Anki help with that, beside a lot of listening (obviously)?

Maybe with listening cards or with kana cards, see:

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...anese-too/

Quote:I would heartily recommend you try, because I think it would do wonders for your kanji production skills and your listening comprehension skills (remember, there are no subtitles in real life).

PS: I'm more than satisfied with my reading skills, I can read novels just fine, but my listening skills, while better than a year ago, are still lousy. I'm still doing a lot of immersion, I read a lot, I listen a lot, and this is someway working, but regarding my listening skills, I feel that I may get something more if I use Anki too.
I know that not many people do this (listening or kana cards) but how great are their listening skills? To those that just do immersion (read and listening a lot) do you consider yourself fluent in listening (like audiobooks for example)?

howtwosavealif3 sorry I replied just before you posted your answer!
Yes, I was talking about him ahahaha I think he's great lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about, cards which help you with listening (and I think MCD is one of those).
I wonder how is your listening skill? Do you feel that MCD cards helps you much in that?

I often read things like "I'm fluent in reading while my listening skill is not so good" and they are just like me (no anki at all) or they do anki but vanilla style (kanjified sentences on front which to me is not necessary as reading will take care of itself).
So I wonder if I use Anki specifically to help my listening skills if the time I'll spend on it will pay of in the end.
Edited: 2017-10-04, 4:20 pm
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#6
my listening skills are great. it's impossible for my listening skills to suck considering how much time i put into japanese. i think you should find stuff you want to actually want to understand in Japanese instead of worrying about the general my listening comprehension sucks. I MEAN stuff you actually want to watch/listen to and it happens to be in Japanese rather than the other way around which is bound to end in anguish lol. personally love talk variety shows (as in I found ones i love and don't watch ones that i think suck) so I spent a lot of time watching them and looked up stuff as I watched or rewound multiple times to understand and for some eps i had transcripts available and sometimes i'd ask japanese people online "whta did this person say at 5;30 mark of the video."

I don't think you have to use anki to improve your listening skills. for example you could watch an anime episode, go through the episode with the japanese script with rikai-chan or yomisama and the english script and look up everything that you don't know then generate or don't generate anki cards, then listen to the episode multiple times... by doing this you're making the incomprehensible parts of the audio comprehensible.

there's a lot of threads on listening comprehension I'm sure and there's also one specifically on sub2srs.

TO ANSWER your question my listening skills were already good by the time i started MCD cards but i don't see how they would be helpful for listening skills.
Edited: 2017-10-04, 7:11 pm
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#7
Great suggestions howtwosavealif3!
In fact I'm already doing this. I really like audiobooks and I remember that my listening skills improved a lot when I was doing 1 hour a day of intensive listening of audiobooks.
But I would like to complement this with Anki to get the forgetting to a minimum.
Also I like that Anki force you to put more attention in what you're doing, when you put something into Anki it helps you notice more. Another thing that I like about Anki is that it forces you to do something every day, so even when you don't feel like studying, you still get to review things and this helps you stay in touch with the language.
I see it just like another tool to expose yourself to the language.
I'll try to do what you say, after I've listened and double-checked the transcript, I'll add things to Anki. I'll try this for a couple of months and I'll see how it works.
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#8
I assume you're talking about Matt.
I've talked with Matt and he did 10 sentences/day and got to 10,000, but he learned Japanese during his high school years, and was able to get a lot of immersion hours in there. He still keeps in contact with Japanese friends, and he's been finding his interest in Japanese again.

It's more than just the sentences, but the sentences are important, I think. It's what keeps you coming back to Japanese content daily, so you can mine more sentences. That cycle is the key.


One important thing that Matt told me was that he couldn't possibly cover ALL the vocab he knows through Anki. Immersion covered a lot of his vocab, and doing it for years and years is ensuring he doesn't forget it. It's been naturally SRS'd. If you're only able to spend 2-4 hours on Japanese a day, you might need to increase your sentences to get more artificial spaced repetition (Anki) for more vocab than you'd otherwise get exposure to naturally. When you have 10+ hrs/day for Japanese, you can do more or less Anki (like 10 cards or 100+ if you want to go grind mode) if you're truly immersing and getting daily focused exposure.

Realistically, I think if you only spent a few hours a day on Japanese, you're gonna need like 20k+
sentence cards before you can enjoyably read novels, if you're not also gaining vocab from immersing. Doing stuff like RTK to learn kanji also helps you acquire vocab in the wild, and the more vocab you know, the more you can pick up through connections.
Edited: 2017-10-09, 8:52 am
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#9
vladz0r thank you for your reply! I've seen his latest video and he said that he's still into Japanese for 1 hour a day. I was happy to hear that.
Maybe I need more listening immersion, I'm still working about it, because I read a lot and I've no problem reading novels most of the time, but I've truble understanding spoken Japanese. A lot of times I know a word when I encounter it in reading, but when I encounter it in listening, I'm unable to recall its meaning. Maybe all I need is to just listen a lot more ._.
What I wondered was how to use Anki to help me about this issue, because I find no use in adding those sentences because I already understand them in written form. So I wondered if I add them in hiragana instead of kanji as katsumoto suggested in one of his relatively more recent posts (*), if this would help me with listening (because hiragana is a direct phonetical rapresentation of the word, while kanji gives a hint about meaning too, which helps me recalling the word's meaning in reading but obviously not in listening).

* http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...anese-too/
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#10
(2017-10-09, 9:30 am)cophnia61 Wrote: So I wondered if I add them in hiragana instead of kanji as katsumoto suggested in one of his relatively more recent posts (*), if this would help me with listening (because hiragana is a direct phonetical rapresentation of the word, while kanji gives a hint about meaning too, which helps me recalling the word's meaning in reading but obviously not in listening).

I think would be a poor use of your time. Reading 100% kana is painful and not something you will encounter in the wild.

If you want to improve your listening, listen to podcasts, radio or audiobooks.

TV and movies are fun but note limited number of words per minute. All the beautiful color images and simple plots will not encourage your mind to concentrate on the Japanese.
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#11
(2017-10-09, 9:57 am)scooter1 Wrote:
(2017-10-09, 9:30 am)cophnia61 Wrote: So I wondered if I add them in hiragana instead of kanji as katsumoto suggested in one of his relatively more recent posts (*), if this would help me with listening (because hiragana is a direct phonetical rapresentation of the word, while kanji gives a hint about meaning too, which helps me recalling the word's meaning in reading but obviously not in listening).

I think would be a poor use of your time. Reading 100% kana is painful and not something you will encounter in the wild.

If you want to improve your listening, listen to podcasts, radio or audiobooks.

TV and movies are fun but note limited number of words per minute. All the beautiful color images and simple plots will not encourage your mind to concentrate on the Japanese.

I agree with ya. I don't know why people feel so pressured or inclined to use anki. Just listen a lot and find something you actually want to understand that way you put in the effort to rewind or relisten or look up stuff
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#12
(2017-10-09, 9:30 am)cophnia61 Wrote: vladz0r thank you for your reply! I've seen his latest video and he said that he's still into Japanese for 1 hour a day. I was happy to hear that.
Maybe I need more listening immersion, I'm still working about it, because I read a lot and I've no problem reading novels most of the time, but I've truble understanding spoken Japanese. A lot of times I know a word when I encounter it in reading, but when I encounter it in listening, I'm unable to recall its meaning. Maybe all I need is to just listen a lot more ._.
What I wondered was how to use Anki to help me about this issue, because I find no use in adding those sentences because I already understand them in written form. So I wondered if I add them in hiragana instead of kanji as katsumoto suggested in one of his relatively more recent posts (*), if this would help me with listening (because hiragana is a direct phonetical rapresentation of the word, while kanji gives a hint about meaning too, which helps me recalling the word's meaning in reading but obviously not in listening).

* http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...anese-too/

I do audio->kanji+definition for vocab words in my Anki, along with subs2srs sentences with audio on the front. It helps me to get used to more words by sound only. I'm not sure how the first method is going to work out in the super long term, but for now I'm saving homophones to a list, and it usually works out fine. I've gone through around 5-6k words, suspended 3600, reviewing 1700 (the 3600 I already knew by audio only). I think it helps out a lot, but I'm at the point where I gotta fill in the gaps with lots of lower frequency words. I did the AJATT style passive listening thing for several months but I hit a plateau with my listening skills, even with saving new sentences every day and reading. Thus, I do these cards https://i.imgur.com/BBEZ9hG.png
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#13
(2017-10-14, 3:09 pm)vladz0r Wrote: I do audio->kanji+definition for vocab words in my Anki, along with subs2srs sentences with audio on the front. It helps me to get used to more words by sound only. I'm not sure how the first method is going to work out in the super long term, but for now I'm saving homophones to a list, and it usually works out fine. I've gone through around 5-6k words, suspended 3600, reviewing 1700 (the 3600 I already knew by audio only). I think it helps out a lot, but I'm at the point where I gotta fill in the gaps with lots of lower frequency words. I did the AJATT style passive listening thing for several months but I hit a plateau with my listening skills, even with saving new sentences every day and reading. Thus, I do these cards https://i.imgur.com/BBEZ9hG.png

vladz0r thank you for your help! About the card type you've linked, do you have sound too on front? Or is there only the word in hiragana (like "けいせい" in your example)?
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#14
(2017-10-14, 4:07 pm)cophnia61 Wrote:
(2017-10-14, 3:09 pm)vladz0r Wrote: I do audio->kanji+definition for vocab words in my Anki, along with subs2srs sentences with audio on the front. It helps me to get used to more words by sound only. I'm not sure how the first method is going to work out in the super long term, but for now I'm saving homophones to a list, and it usually works out fine. I've gone through around 5-6k words, suspended 3600, reviewing 1700 (the 3600 I already knew by audio only). I think it helps out a lot, but I'm at the point where I gotta fill in the gaps with lots of lower frequency words. I did the AJATT style passive listening thing for several months but I hit a plateau with my listening skills, even with saving new sentences every day and reading. Thus, I do these cards https://i.imgur.com/BBEZ9hG.png

vladz0r thank you for your help! About the card type you've linked, do you have sound too on front? Or is there only the word in hiragana (like "けいせい" in your example)?

audio + hiragana version of the word on the front. My listening is at the point where I know the difference between せ and せい and whatnot, so the hiragana just helps me get through my cards more quickly.
Edited: 2017-10-15, 10:54 am
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#15
(2017-10-15, 10:53 am)vladz0r Wrote:
(2017-10-14, 4:07 pm)cophnia61 Wrote:
(2017-10-14, 3:09 pm)vladz0r Wrote: I do audio->kanji+definition for vocab words in my Anki, along with subs2srs sentences with audio on the front. It helps me to get used to more words by sound only. I'm not sure how the first method is going to work out in the super long term, but for now I'm saving homophones to a list, and it usually works out fine. I've gone through around 5-6k words, suspended 3600, reviewing 1700 (the 3600 I already knew by audio only). I think it helps out a lot, but I'm at the point where I gotta fill in the gaps with lots of lower frequency words. I did the AJATT style passive listening thing for several months but I hit a plateau with my listening skills, even with saving new sentences every day and reading. Thus, I do these cards https://i.imgur.com/BBEZ9hG.png

vladz0r thank you for your help! About the card type you've linked, do you have sound too on front? Or is there only the word in hiragana (like "けいせい" in your example)?

audio + hiragana version of the word on the front. My listening is at the point where I know the difference between せ and せい and whatnot, so the hiragana just helps me get through my cards more quickly.

Great! I'll try to do something similar Tongue
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#16
(2017-10-09, 9:57 am)scooter1 Wrote: TV and movies are fun but note limited number of words per minute. All the beautiful color images and simple plots will not encourage your mind to concentrate on the Japanese.

Categorically not true. There are many dramas that are incredibly "talk-y", and provide great listening practice. 相棒, 奥様は取り扱い注意, 東京タラレバ娘, Doctor X and ハロー張りネズミ are all good dramas from the past couple of seasons that provide great practice. Plus, J-subs are available for many of these shows.

Variety and news TV shows are also great practice, and is usually non-stop talking. I've spent months watching 情報ライブミヤネ屋, which is wall to wall discussion of events and scandals of the day.

People should listen to what they find interesting. All this talk of "the *optimal* things to listen to/read" does nothing but encourage people to consume media they find dull and non-engaging, which is lethal to motivation.

</rant>
Edited: 2017-10-15, 11:34 am
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