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The Great Anki Wall Crumbles

#51
(2017-09-05, 5:24 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote: I told you everything you need to know.
This guy.
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#52
(2017-09-05, 5:24 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(2017-09-02, 2:20 pm)Splatted Wrote: @Stansfield123: Presenting truth in a polite way, free of personal attacks, is pretty much a requirement if you want the conversation to focus on the facts instead of the politics.
Yes, but I wasn't trying to start a conversation with Phil. I was trying to end one, and give a reason as to why I'm ending it. Not so much to pick on Phil (though he deserves it), but to hopefully stop people who are new to Japanese from listening to him.

LOL I think I've become acclimatized to Stansfield123's blunt approach.
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#53
Quote:acclimatized
Hey, I came here to learn Japanese, not to be reminded that I barely know English Wink
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#54
(2017-09-06, 8:35 am)phil321 Wrote: LOL I think I've become acclimatized to Stansfield123's blunt approach.
Must be because you two are cousins. You have the same last name only reversed...123...321.
hehe. only kidding. Angel
Edited: 2017-09-06, 2:04 pm
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#55
(2017-08-29, 9:34 am)phil321 Wrote: I remember a while back I made the comment that the hardest thing about learning Japanese is acquiring vocabulary, and someone on this forum jumped all over me and said "no it's not!  acquiring vocabulary is trivial!"  They used the word "trivial".  LOL.  If you're reading this, Mr. Trivial please respond!  (I won't hold my breath).  I could probably go back and look and see who it was on this forum who disagreed with me for the sake of disagreeing but I can't be bothered.

You're in luck, as I decided to browse the forum today of all days despite leaving this website for a few months.
Let me remind you of the old thread:
https://forum.koohii.com/thread-14522.ht...alxxxtotal

Here you said:
Quote:Learning the kanji isn't the problem.  Acquiring vocabulary is the problem.

And I replied:
Quote:Expanding your vocabulary is trivial. For most learners, Kanji is definitely the problem.

Does someone saying that most foreigners don't speak well support your thesis that vocabulary is more difficult than kanji? It obviously does not, as most foreigners are even worse with kanji. There are responses in the old thread if you wish to continue this discussion there, but seeing you taunting here about four months later using an unrelated example is petty, cowardly, and pathetic. You are as wrong now as you were then.
Edited: 2017-09-10, 2:42 am
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#56
(2017-09-10, 12:15 am)totalxxxtotal2 Wrote: [quote pid='246755' dateline='1504017274']
Here you said:
Quote:Learning the kanji isn't the problem.  Acquiring vocabulary is the problem.

[/quote]

I actually made an excellent point, if I do say so myself. 

Right now I'm studying for the N4, and the kanji are a breeze (under 200 of them you need to know for the N4.  I have a list of them in a book about preparing for the N4) however in doing the practice tests for the listening part of the exam, over and over again I can't answer the question because I don't know what the word means.  And you have to recognize the word VERBALLY in the absence of kanji in order to do the listening part.

E.g. someone says "tenkin" in one of the questions.  You need to know right off the bat that "tenkin" means "job rotation".  The kanji don't matter; you need to be able to instantly process the word phonetically.  This applies to holding a conversation as well.
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#57
It isn't a good point. All it boils down to it is saying that you, as a beginner, feel that the Kanji portions of your exams are easier than your listening portions, which I admit is subjective and cannot really be argued, but must also say that it is contrary to the experiences of most language learners, and is likely a temporary state. Also listening  and vocabulary are different things although they are related. You are meant to use the context to know which specific meaning is being used. You usually don't have to know it "off the bat" or "instantly".

Aside from this, your supporting details are idiotic. Let us revisit them, as it appears that this topic has kept you in so much pain for the past months, that you had to bring it up in an unrelated topic.
Phil321:
Quote:Learning vocabulary is harder than learning kanji...consider that Japanese school children can already speak the language and have a huge vocabulary before they start formally learning kanji.  If you can already speak the language I imagine it's not a big deal learning the kanji that represent what you already know how to say.

For people who are not native speakers we're trying to learn both at once which is a lot harder.
Examine your logic:
1.) Japanese children speak the language before learning the kanji.
2.)???
3.) Therefore vocabulary is harder than learning the Kanji.

How does this make sense to you? Do you not know that even the natives, even the university educated ones, forget Kanji for words they know the meanings of all the time?
Edited: 2017-09-10, 8:45 am
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#58
total, I don't like your tone. There's no need for the hostility and the ad hominems. Let's please keep civil, try to understand each other and argue our points in good faith.

I think there's a few assumptions we need to straighten up here so we're all on the same page. The learning experience of an adult learner and that of a native is never going to be the same, so we can't use one's experience to argue what's it's like for the other. Let's also point out that Phil321 is clearly talking only about reading, whereas natives generally forget the kanji for things in the context of writing. Well-read natives won't generally struggle much to read the majority of kanji, though there might be the occasional exception just as much as a native English speaker might not know how to pronounce a word they've never heard before.

With that established, my own experience as for why kanji is easier for me to memorise as a learner than vocabulary probably comes down to several points.
a) kanji are visually unique, which means it's easy to learn to identify them quickly even if I couldn't write them for the life of me.
b) there are fewer kanji than there are words to memorise (about 3 000+ vs 30 000+)
c) there's less information to memorise with each kanji - as in, you only have to memorise a vague meaning and a couple of words using it for the 2-4 readings you're probably going to want to know which is in turn going to reinforce its meaning.

Compare that to vocabulary. You have a sound, it's compound or spelling, you have its (multiple) meaning(s) for which there might be many contextual nuances. Japanese is also full of homophones so you need to understand in which situation a word is what. That presents significantly more data points. The kanji themselves also clue you in on its meaning and reading, which you don't get when you hear it spoken, so you could understand a word you don't actually know well thanks to the kanji.

d) the number of data points means that memorising words and their meaning is less simple than just memorising how a kanji is read in this or that compound. I struggle with this constantly while practicing with flashcards. Learning the compound reading? Relativelly trivial in most cases. Learning meaning? Generally only happens for me when I encounter it in use consequitivelly in real world (as in uncontrolled) situations.

Kanji isn't easy, but as a learner I find it significantly easier to quickly grasp how to read a kanji and its vague infered meaning than what word means and when and how it's used. The native has a significant advantage in that they've already soaked up a lot of the information for the latter by the time they even start to try learning kanji and they learn kanji a lot more thoroughly than a second language speaker in this day and age who is unlikely to be even the slightest concerned with learning handwriting.

I guess the fact a lot of us here uses SRS flashcards to practice kanji compounds shapes our learning experience a lot as well. Someone learning Japanese using traditional methods only is more likely to struggle with them.
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#59
Quote:Do you not know that even the natives, even the university educated ones, forget Kanji for words they know the meanings of all the time?

They forget a lot of words too. Probably they forget more words than kanji.

As a foreigner who studies the Japanese language I find words much hard to learn/remember. As Jackdaw said there are more words than kanji to learn.
Edited: 2017-09-10, 12:22 pm
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#60
Kanji are more or less unique. Words, at least Sino-Japanese ones, all sound the same, to me.
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#61
(2017-09-10, 8:52 am)Jackdaw Wrote: total, I don't like your tone. There's no need for the hostility and the ad hominems. Let's please keep civil, try to understand each other and argue our points in good faith.

You don't know what an ad hominem means. It doesn't mean insulting.  Learn the difference between:
1.) You are wrong because you are an idiot.
2.) You are wrong, so you are an idiot.
If you must absolutely insist, or even currently believe, that every attack   is an ad hominem, then you should know that policing tone is the same thing. Thus, you too are committing an ad hominem, and considering your objections to it, are also a hypocrite.

Quote:I think there's a few assumptions we need to straighten up here so we're all on the same page. The learning experience of an adult learner and that of a native is never going to be the same, so we can't use one's experience to argue what's it's like for the other.
Precisely. It is one other reason why his reasoning is silly, but I felt it was too obvious to even mention.


Quote:Let's also point out that Phil321 is clearly talking only about reading, whereas natives generally forget the kanji for things in the context of writing. Well-read natives won't generally struggle much to read the majority of kanji, though there might be the occasional exception just as much as a native English speaker might not know how to pronounce a word they've never heard before.
You need to read the original topic. The distinction between reading and writing did not exist there. You merely created it on his story on being unable to answer his listening questions, and it is a distinction I disagree with. Reading and writing kanji are inseparable. If you can read-- or identify their keyword or a "vague meaning"-- but not write or understand, then you have not learned the kanji, and one who has not learned the kanji has no place in saying that it is easy. At the end of the day vocabulary is only a prerequisite to kanji. You must know the word before you know the kanji of the word. That it is why it is only with a warped view of what learning kanji is can one have trouble with vocabulary but an easy time with kanji.

Well read natives certainly do have trouble reading kanji, and they have trouble enough that I would not call it an occasional exception.

His argument right now (and yours too?) has become reliant on reducing what "learning the kanji means" by limiting it to recognition and separating it from vocabulary, and by increasing what "vocabulary" means by adding it to listening.
Edited: 2017-09-10, 8:10 pm
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#62
I see. Up until now I never saw your rationale for your argument in your posts. Skim reading the thread you linked (I'm afraid I don't have the time or energy to read it proper right now), the only post by you was of you bluntly disagreeing but providing no explanation why. Similarly with your above posts you didn't explain your stance adequately, so it came across as only you saying "I disagree with you, therefore you're an idiot". Now I at least understand where your objections are coming from.

And I can agree with you that we probably have different ideas of at which point we consider us having learnt our kanji and that's the core of our disagreement. Or at least why it appears we do as I don't consider kanji and vocabulary separate either. I'm not sure of where I draw the line myself exactly, so I don't think I can meaningfully contribute any further.

Oh, and you're correct about ad hominems, I didn't know the full extent of the term. Though I object to the two examples you gave, not because I don't understand the distinction you want to make, but because without the rebuttal, you're still just insulting someone. And no, your position isn't obvious. People don't think the same, so you do actually have to explain it to them like you just did. I feel satisfied having received one from you now, so I'll leave it there. Thanks.
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