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The Great Anki Wall Crumbles

#26
(2017-08-29, 9:47 am)phil321 Wrote: You're confusing the issue now.  You're basically suggesting that the spoken forms are really different forms of the written forms and they can be (e.g., if you're reading manga where the written forms mimic speech) but what I'm talking about is the standard written language that you learn from most textbooks.

It seems you are the one confusing the issue. Written colloquial language is written and you can read things like manga to study the colloquial Japanese. Why say that you can't learn colloquial Japanese by reading and then say 'what I'm talking about is textbook japanese'. Well duh. Is is even surprising that textbooks aren't a good way to study colloquial Japanese?
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#27
The difference between written and spoken japanese comes more into play when you have to speak, not so much in understanding.
If you understand what you read, you should understand what you hear (accent, pronunciation & speed problems put aside), but it doesn't necessarily mean you can use it properly.
Just by reading books, I certainly cannot tell the difference between に関して・について, I wouldn't know that において or に至るまで are mostly used in text or very formal speech, not so much in conversation. If I can tell the difference between casual and formal speech, it is because I'm studying the language not because I've read tons of books (which I didn't).
If no one would have told me, I might be using あたし and start talking like a little girl without even noticing it xD (but that is another topic that has nothing to do with written vs spoken).
Anyway, I wouldn't take expressions from books for granted and start using it freely like that, unless I hear it used IRL or in a drama in a normal situation. If I hear it, at least I know it is safe to use it in conversation.
The difference between written and spoken is not that dramatic so that you can't understand a thing, certainly not. But imo, it is big enough to make you sound like a weirdo/posh/out-of-place if you don't pay attention to those little things.
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#28
(2017-08-29, 9:15 am)phil321 Wrote: The above statement is absolutely untrue.  For example:

Written:  Tabete iru.  Spoken:  Tabeteru.

Written:  Tabete shimatta.  Spoken:  Tabechatta.
Yeah, you have no idea what literary style is. Obviously. 食べる doesn't have a special conjugation in literary style. It's written as it is spoken, including in formal writing.

More alarmingly, you also don't know how Japanese adults say something as basic as "I ate". Seriously, you think the average Japanese adult says "食べちゃった" ? What are you studying out of? Do you do ANY immersion? Do you watch anything in Japanese? Have you ever seen a Japanese person? Or at least a picture of one?
Edited: 2017-08-29, 4:13 pm
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#29
That post seemed a little rude, especially considering it's over something that doesnt matter at all. In fact, the general blatant passive aggressive hostility of users (mostly long time users) of this forum is something that's bothered me for a while. Things have seem to have improved, but from my lurking I've noticed that users in the past here have had a tendency to make insulting jabs and personal attacks, often to the point of Fabrice having to close the thread. Users insulting others' Japanese abilities, ways of studying,... all things that could be criticized or questioned upon in a civil manner. Like I said, I haven't seen that much of it in the newer threads. But maybe a few of them are left over.

(Not a good way to establish a first impression here, I know. But I would expect a group of users with a shared common interest to be a little more nice to each other. Or maybe I'm just seeing the bad things, or...posts before they're edited Wink )
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#30
(2017-08-29, 4:43 pm)torisan Wrote: Users insulting others' Japanese abilities, ways of studying,... all things that could be criticized or questioned upon in a civil manner. Like I said, I haven't seen that much of it in the newer threads. But maybe a few of them are left over.

(Not a good way to establish a first impression here, I know. But I would expect a group of users with a shared common interest to be a little more nice to each other. Or maybe I'm just seeing the bad things, or...posts before they're edited Wink )

I don't know, I disagree.  It's not perfect but nowhere is, overall I'm usually impressed by how civil everybody on here is even though a lot of people have totally conflicting views on their methods.  I mean compared to any other community on the internet the amount of civil disagreement is refreshing.

I don't think a couple exceptions ruins whats mostly a positive place for discussion.  Also as you mentioned the things you're noticing are from long time users so maybe there are reasons for their attitude to each other that you're not aware of.
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#31
(2017-08-29, 7:50 pm)cracky Wrote: I don't know, I disagree.  It's not perfect but nowhere is, overall I'm usually impressed by how civil everybody on here is even though a lot of people have totally conflicting views on their methods.  I mean compared to any other community on the internet the amount of civil disagreement is refreshing.

I don't think a couple exceptions ruins whats mostly a positive place for discussion.  Also as you mentioned the things you're noticing are from long time users so maybe there are reasons for their attitude to each other that you're not aware of.

I also feel like this place is more civil than most internet forums. My guess is that the average level of education is pretty high, not to say that there aren't some highly educated jerks. It would be interesting to do a survey.
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#32
(2017-08-29, 7:50 pm)cracky Wrote:
(2017-08-29, 4:43 pm)torisan Wrote: Users insulting others' Japanese abilities, ways of studying,... all things that could be criticized or questioned upon in a civil manner. Like I said, I haven't seen that much of it in the newer threads. But maybe a few of them are left over.

(Not a good way to establish a first impression here, I know. But I would expect a group of users with a shared common interest to be a little more nice to each other. Or maybe I'm just seeing the bad things, or...posts before they're edited Wink )

I don't know, I disagree.  It's not perfect but nowhere is, overall I'm usually impressed by how civil everybody on here is even though a lot of people have totally conflicting views on their methods.  I mean compared to any other community on the internet the amount of civil disagreement is refreshing.

I don't think a couple exceptions ruins whats mostly a positive place for discussion.  Also as you mentioned the things you're noticing are from long time users so maybe there are reasons for their attitude to each other that you're not aware of.

Everything you said is true. Sorry about being hot headed at the time, I think a the part I was most mad about was removed by the edit.
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#33
(2017-08-29, 4:43 pm)torisan Wrote: That post seemed a little rude, especially considering it's over something that doesnt matter at all. In fact, the general blatant passive aggressive hostility of users (mostly long time users) of this forum is something that's bothered me for a while. Things have seem to have improved, but from my lurking I've noticed that users in the past here have had a tendency to make insulting jabs and personal attacks, often to the point of Fabrice having to close the thread. Users insulting others' Japanese abilities, ways of studying,... all things that could be criticized or questioned upon in a civil manner. Like I said, I haven't seen that much of it in the newer threads. But maybe a few of them are left over.

(Not a good way to establish a first impression here, I know. But I would expect a group of users with a shared common interest to be a little more nice to each other. Or maybe I'm just seeing the bad things, or...posts before they're edited Wink )

Yeah, I agree (and I'm the OP  Smile)

There are a lot of Japanese at my coworking space, and I'm always amazed that even those with the best language abilities are far from native ability. I just correct a friend's speech that he's giving in English, and there were lots of errors around, for example, prepositions. The only exception I've seen to this are people are who are haafu, and grew up in a house where one parent was a native English speaker. 

It's pretty humbling, and a nice reminder for me to take it easy with my Japanese studies. There is no real "end" for me to race towards, so I just focus on enjoying the journey Smile
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#34
(2017-08-29, 4:43 pm)torisan Wrote: That post seemed a little rude

In my experience, there are two kinds of people: those who value truth above politics, and those who value politics above truth.

With that in mind, can you name any factual errors in my post? Or are you just objecting to my political skills?

If it's the latter, thank you for the compliment. If it's the former, thank you in advance for the Japanese lesson. That would come in much more handy than the unintentional compliment.
Edited: 2017-09-01, 9:56 pm
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#35
(2017-09-01, 9:43 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(2017-08-29, 4:43 pm)torisan Wrote: That post seemed a little rude

In my experience, there are two kinds of people: those who value truth above politics, and those who value politics above truth.

With that in mind, can you name any factual errors in my post? Or are you just objecting to my political skills?

If it's the latter, thank you for the compliment. If it's the former, thank you in advance for the Japanese lesson. That would come in much more handy than the unintentional compliment.

I'm not torisan but I do object to your Japanese skills. Japanese adults do use contactions and 食べちゃった is not an exception. It just happens that it's an informal/colloquial speech that textbooks tend to avoid teaching.
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#36
(2017-09-01, 11:15 pm)Inny Jan Wrote: I'm not torisan but I do object to your Japanese skills. Japanese adults do use contactions and 食べちゃった is not an exception. It just happens that it's an informal/colloquial speech that textbooks tend to avoid teaching.

I'm not Stansfield, but he didn't say anything about Japanese adults not using contractions.
Or perhaps your first and second sentences have nothing to do with each other, in which case I object to your formatting.
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#37
(2017-09-01, 11:42 pm)sholum Wrote:
(2017-09-01, 11:15 pm)Inny Jan Wrote: I'm not torisan but I do object to your Japanese skills. Japanese adults do use contactions and 食べちゃった is not an exception. It just happens that it's an informal/colloquial speech that textbooks tend to avoid teaching.

I'm not Stansfield, but he didn't say anything about Japanese adults not using contractions.
Or perhaps your first and second sentences have nothing to do with each other, in which case I object to your formatting.
(2017-08-29, 3:51 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote: More alarmingly, you also don't know how Japanese adults say something as basic as "I ate". Seriously, you think the average Japanese adult says "食べちゃった" ? What are you studying out of? Do you do ANY immersion? [and so on]

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have misread the text above.
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#38
No problem, it happens. Just making sure you weren't making that assumption based on what he did say.
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#39
[Let me fix my commenting]

@torisan
Don't worry about Stansfield's comments because the average Japanese adult does say "食べちゃった", which he obviously is not aware of. How do I know? Well, I talk and listen to the average Japanese adults.
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#40
(2017-09-02, 1:51 am)Inny Jan Wrote: [Let me fix my commenting]

@torisan
Don't worry about Stansfield's comments because the average Japanese adult does say "食べちゃった", which he obviously is not aware of. How do I know? Well, I talk and listen to the average Japanese adults.

Thanks for this!

(2017-08-29, 3:51 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(2017-08-29, 9:15 am)phil321 Wrote: The above statement is absolutely untrue.  For example:

Written:  Tabete iru.  Spoken:  Tabeteru.

Written:  Tabete shimatta.  Spoken:  Tabechatta.
Yeah, you have no idea what literary style is. Obviously. 食べる doesn't have a special conjugation in literary style. It's written as it is spoken, including in formal writing.

More alarmingly, you also don't know how Japanese adults say something as basic as "I ate". Seriously, you think the average Japanese adult says "食べちゃった" ? What are you studying out of? Do you do ANY immersion? Do you watch anything in Japanese? Have you ever seen a Japanese person? Or at least a picture of one?

I've come across "tabechatta" in JLPT study materials.  Also, I actually meet sometimes with a native born Japanese tutor.  I don't have his picture though.
Edited: 2017-09-02, 5:42 am
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#41
I'm in no position to comment on the truth of your statements, but whether they are true or untrue I'm sure they could have been rephrased without the condescension. Just my 0.02 USD, there's nothing wrong with what you say otherwise.

Edit: intended towards @stansfield123
Edited: 2017-09-02, 8:14 am
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#42
@Stansfield123: Presenting truth in a polite way, free of personal attacks, is pretty much a requirement if you want the conversation to focus on the facts instead of the politics. Otherwise you're the one that shifted the focus.
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#43
(2017-09-02, 2:20 pm)Splatted Wrote: @Stansfield123: Presenting truth in a polite way, free of personal attacks, is pretty much a requirement if you want the conversation to focus on the facts instead of the politics. Otherwise you're the one that shifted the focus.

^This.^
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#44
(2017-08-28, 8:23 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote:
(2017-08-27, 9:46 pm)phil321 Wrote: I was saying to someone the other day that spoken Japanese has to be approached almost as if it were a different language from written Japanese. You can't just study written Japanese and expect from that to be able to understand the spoken language.

I hope no one actually takes this statement seriously. Just trust me: you won't be studying a different language, by choosing a method centered around reading. There's plenty of casually written Japanese out there, and even the literary form is still 99.9% the same ol' language.

You CAN in fact just study written Japanese and expect from that to be able to understand the spoken language. Same as with any other language. Japanese is not special in any significant way, in this regard. 

Phil probably just hasn't come across anything written after 1950 yet. That's about the year he seems to be stuck in, when it comes to Japanese study materials.

If you don't want to go back to 1950, you could refer to this list of more recent materials:

http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED014072.pdf
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#45
(2017-09-03, 11:16 pm)phil321 Wrote: If you don't want to go back to 1950, you could refer to this list of more recent materials:

http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED014072.pdf

Just wanted to jump in and say I am laughing so hard right now that this bibliography published in 1966 is the retaliation to being accused of being stuck in the 1950s.

Man this forum is a real hoot.
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#46
(2017-09-03, 11:33 pm)karageko Wrote:
(2017-09-03, 11:16 pm)phil321 Wrote: If you don't want to go back to 1950, you could refer to this list of more recent materials:

http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED014072.pdf

Just wanted to jump in and say I am laughing so hard right now that this bibliography published in 1966 is the retaliation to being accused of being stuck in the 1950s.

Man this forum is a real hoot.

Thanks, just trying to inject some amusement.

As an aside, note that several of the Japanese books in the 1966 bibliography are still in print, in updated form and sold on Amazon.com:

-Essential Japanese by Samuel Martin is sold today as "Basic Japanese";
-Andrew Nelson's dictionary;
-Florence Sakade's book;
-Roy Miller's Japanese reader
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#47
(2017-09-03, 11:33 pm)karageko Wrote:
(2017-09-03, 11:16 pm)phil321 Wrote: If you don't want to go back to 1950, you could refer to this list of more recent materials:

http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED014072.pdf

Just wanted to jump in and say I am laughing so hard right now that this bibliography published in 1966 is the retaliation to being accused of being stuck in the 1950s.

Happened to me too.  After it happened I tried to explain to my girlfriend why it was so funny and got the worst look.
Edited: 2017-09-05, 4:44 am
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#48
On the spoken/written language thing. This is my two cents:

1. Hello, friend, do you want to come to my home this evening?
2. Hey m8, wanna drop by my place 2nite?

Both mean the same thing. 1 would sound really weird in a casual setting. I wouldn't expect 2 to be taught in textbooks. You could argue that 1 and 2 are different languages altogether, I would suggest 2 is a casual variation of the formal 1, and that they are both the same language. And I also believe that learning 1 first is good and will make it much easier to learn 2 once you immerse yourself with actual English natives. This example in English can be roughly extended to Japanese.

Just my opinion, though! Wink
Edited: 2017-09-05, 8:10 am
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#49
(2017-09-02, 2:20 pm)Splatted Wrote: @Stansfield123: Presenting truth in a polite way, free of personal attacks, is pretty much a requirement if you want the conversation to focus on the facts instead of the politics.
Yes, but I wasn't trying to start a conversation with Phil. I was trying to end one, and give a reason as to why I'm ending it. Not so much to pick on Phil (though he deserves it), but to hopefully stop people who are new to Japanese from listening to him.

As for anyone else, I don't have the power to compel anyone to stop caring about facts. So if my mean-ness is keeping you from figuring out what the truth is, sorry, that's still your fault. I told you everything you need to know, to figure out why Phil is wrong. I even added in everything you need to know to figure out why Phil isn't even trying to be right, as a bonus.

You can use what I said, or not. Entirely up to you.

Anyhow, bottom line: you can use written resources to learn the language. The differences between spoken and written Japanese are minimal. They are about the same in nature and scale as they are in other languages.
Edited: 2017-09-05, 5:43 pm
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#50
(2017-09-05, 5:24 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote: So if my mean-ness is keeping you from figuring out what the truth is, sorry, that's still your fault.
This is the closest I've ever seen him admit that he's a jerk haha. Seems like it would be a lot simpler to just admit this and move on but sure, it's clearly all for uncovering the truth.
(2017-08-29, 3:51 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote: Seriously, you think the average Japanese adult says "食べちゃった" ?
To be fair guys, he clearly doesn't need to be mean to keep people from figuring out the truth.

I'm pretty fine with people being blunt to cut off people saying silly things but it is funny when the same people say silly things unironically as well.

For anyone who's been here for a while I will play devil's advocate here and say he's a noticeably better than he used to be. Sure his behavior isn't ideal now but at least he finally backed down a bit after being threatened with a forum ban some time back. Since he hasn't been threatened since his behavior is apparently considered acceptable so that just means it's best to move on. Really at the end of the day the staff decide what acceptable behavior or not.

I will say ultimately regardless of the whole bein' rude and what-not, it's a good thing that there's a variety of discussion so people can make their own decision as what is probably correct.

As for my two cents on the whole tangent, I agree with the sentiment that spoken and written language overall are not so vastly different that you should seriously consider them as being different. Learning from the written form can certainly benefit picking up the spoken form at some other time.

tl;dr the 7DC is totally cool.
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