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To those who review words in isolation

#26
I could never really understand the sentence method. I would know the sentence long before I knew the word. That's to say I would know the word in that particular sentence context very quickly without necessarily being sure of its kanji or pronunciation anywhere else.

I would say a lot depends on what role Anki plays in your learning.

My method is based on immersion and massive input. I regard Anki as a support or adjunct to that learning. An Anki-card is a tacking-stitch to hold things in place until they are learned organically, not a means of learning per se.

My aim with the back of a card is to get a pithy Japanese definition or a short, illustrative sample sentence. I TTS this so I hear it every time I review. The back of the card always has the word aloud first (usually native-speaker text which can be automatically added to the card via Rikaisama) followed by the definition or brief sample sentence.

I can let my own perfectionism get the better of me and include too much detail. My ideal is to keep it as brief as possible so that when I see the word it "rings" together in my head with the definition. A one-word definition is ideal, though obviously often not possible.

As for detail, despite my own tendency to include too much (which I mostly resist) - the idea is not to learn all the nuances of the word via Anki. Anki is not the place for that. When you know the word, massive input should get you familiar over time with its different usages and nuances. Like a child learning language you get aha-moments when you say "Naruhodo! By extension it can mean ___".

I am only talking about my approach of course. Other people use Anki differently. My approach is probably not ideal for exam-taking for example, where you are trying to cram facts rather than learn organically.

So to answer the OP's question, what I recall inside my head is either the brief Japanese definition or the short example sentence. Occasionally I use a picture where the definition is simple but over-complex in words (eg purin or a monkey wrench).

To clarify, I won't remember the sample sentence verbatim unless it is very short, but I'll remember the mini-scenario and what the word was getting at.
Edited: 2017-04-26, 12:23 pm
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#27
(2017-04-26, 11:40 am)CureDolly Wrote: So to answer the OP's question, what I recall inside my head is either the brief Japanese definition or the short example sentence. Occasionally I use a picture where the definition is simple but over-complex in words (ie purin or a monkey wrench).

To clarify, I won't remember the sample sentence verbatim unless it is very short, but I'll remember the mini-scenario and word was getting at.

This sound interesting!

Often I read things like "you don't need to recognize words in isolation", but this is exactly what I'm able to do in my L1 (or another language that I know well).

If you say an english word to me (english is not my L1) I will be able to understand it without need to translate into italian inside my head. And this is true even for complex/abstract words, or words without a real meaning per sé (words like "altough").
What happens is exactly what you said: I picture the meaning inside my head. With function words I visualize the usage in an abstract way (like an inner short movie).

I wonder if this would word for me with Japanese, because I need the fastest way to review words.
Also, there is still the issue of finding the right sentence, which takes time.
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#28
(2017-04-26, 11:59 am)cophnia61 Wrote: I wonder if this would word for me with Japanese, because I need the fastest way to review words.
Also, there is still the issue of finding the right sentence, which takes time.

Agreed. Adding sentences - or rather finding them - is the most time-consuming part of the process.

Rikaisama's rather obscure automatic sentence process, which I explain here. Works well when it is set up and does automate the process if you found the word in online text and are happy with the sentence you happened to find it in for your sample. It semi-automates it in other cases.

You can also do the same with Yomichan.

However it is still true that finding sentences is the worst part. If you are happy with the Sanseido Japanese definition which you can use as part of Rikaisama's automatic card-making process, then it is much simpler.

Sanseido does also sometimes include brief sample phrases to indicate usage. It also rather helpfully often gives the antonym of a word - which I often find more concise and useful than the definition itself.

So if I can get away with it I'll just pop into anki's browser, TTS the sanseido definition and that's all the card-tinkering I need to do.

But sentences are needed often and they do slow things down, I agree.
Edited: 2017-04-26, 12:17 pm
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#29
(2017-04-26, 11:40 am)CureDolly Wrote: I could never really understand the sentence method. I would know the sentence long before I knew the word. That's to say I would know the word in that particular sentence context very quickly without necessarily being sure of its kanji or pronunciation anywhere else.

That can happen, yes. That's why, in good decks, words show up more than once. That way, you know the word in different contexts, which gets you closer to knowing it everywhere.

Also, the sentence reviews (I wouldn't call it a "method", it's just one small part of a larger study plan that can include grammar, immersion, etc.) are most helpful to help learn collocations, sentence patterns, and spoken/furigana Japanese in general. Your reading can lag behind, especially if you use audio in the question (which I highly recommend).

For reading, I would either do one of the reading methods you mentioned (intensive, extensive, or anything in between...you can for instance read with Rikaichan, with the translation feature turned off...that should take care of any reading problems you have), or, if you like Anki that much, use a separate deck focused just on readings: single words in the question, reading in the answer...no translation, just the reading. This of course assumes you already know the meaning of the words in the deck, and know them well. Trying to drill readings for words you don't already know would be silly and unnecessarily painful.
Edited: 2017-04-26, 4:42 pm
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#30
Ontopic: i say it in my head, usually in Japanese, but it depends on the deck.

Offtopic: the thread name sounds like the start if a beautiful poem.

To those who review words in isolation
Can you really use them
When someone calls out to you?
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#31
To those who look at words in isolation
And steadfastly review them every day:
Do you not understand their desolation?
The little darlings only want to play...

With other words - and sometimes punctuation -
In sentences that have something to say.
So picture, if you will, their warm elation
When finally they see the light of day.
Edited: 2017-04-27, 2:59 pm
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#32
(2017-04-27, 12:08 pm)Zgarbas Wrote: Ontopic: i say it in my head, usually in Japanese, but it depends on the deck.

Offtopic: the thread name sounds like the start if a beautiful poem.

To those who review words in isolation
Can you really use them
When someone calls out to you?

yes because I do the cloze deletion format. it's not 100% but I would say it's a significant percentage.
Edited: 2017-04-27, 5:17 pm
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#33
I suggest the following format in the aim of an automatic response which creates a sequential acquisition of the pattern of encountering new, unknown vocabulary during reading.

Given: word
Response: sound
Find: meaning

Additional Context: kanji , collocations, contextual information, scrambled sentences, translations

Solidify comprehension of the process through data found within the simulated context or otherwise seek answer in natural yet discombobulated circumstances.

The entire process would thus flow in a pattern that separates the word into an isolated piece of importance yet simulates the word as a piece of a complete thought pattern, as if naturally yet structurally found upon textual consumption. Translations imply ease of recollection yet potentially create unnatural perceptions of a word's usage. Ease also reduces the effectiveness of spaced testing, which uses difficulty to strengthen the encoding of a word. Translation may inspire a cultural response, so to acknowledge yet overcome the social representations implicated by a word's language of origin would allow the learner to create a myriad of linguistic associations that would not be correct if informal assumptive approaches of acquisition were used. Therefore, wariness of instinctual responses during the initial stages of acquisition of a single word prevents incorrect comprehension of lexical units. Original interpretations upon initial encounter create a unique emotional response, but in order to formulate an accurate yet personal response the reviewer must ensure the definition and, preferably withal, the context have situational, emotional, and formal usage.
Edited: 2017-04-29, 5:51 pm
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#34
(2017-04-27, 5:16 pm)howtwosavealif3 Wrote:
(2017-04-27, 12:08 pm)Zgarbas Wrote: Ontopic: i say it in my head, usually in Japanese, but it depends on the deck.

Offtopic: the thread name sounds like the start if a beautiful poem.

To those who review words in isolation
Can you really use them
When someone calls out to you?

yes because I do the cloze deletion format. it's not 100% but I would say it's a significant percentage.

I don't have problems remembering words after studying them in isolation either.  For me it seems the opposite - that learning them so well I can understand them without contextual clues is overkill.  Context makes it easier to understand the word so I don't need to spend the extra time learning it so well I know it without contextual clues.  Since I expect to mostly encounter the word in context, learning words to the point I can understand it in context is good enough.  Through further exposure from reading and listening, I will eventually get to know the words in isolation too.  But that is a by-product of usage, not something that I need to study explicitly.
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#35
(2017-04-26, 8:23 am)cophnia61 Wrote: to Nukemarine: cool! I'm watching it now Tongue

Have you ever faced difficulties with the "english word -> japanese word" method with synonims/quasi-synonims and abstract words?

I've seen the 鳴る example where your prompt is something like "to sing (birds singing)", to disambiguate with similar words (utau etc..). What about more abstract words? Do you use this method for all sort of words or only for the simplest and more concrete ones?

Frequently, but I've modified the original Core 2000/6000 to mitigate those issues. Most obvious is expanding the definition beyond 1 word that repeated on a number of entries. I also add transitive/intransitive or POS markers. On top of that are clues such as adding a "(not ~other word)". I also have word format to says order and amount of hiragana and kanji. Finally there's the RTK keywords for kanji in the word which can be a big ***** hint if you're familiar with them.

Of course I'm not at the more abstract words yet (approaching 2000 right now), so time will tell.
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#36
(2017-04-27, 2:57 pm)CureDolly Wrote: To those who look at words in isolation
And steadfastly review them every day:
Do you not understand their desolation?
The little darlings only want to play...

With other words - and sometimes punctuation -
In sentences that have something to say.
So picture, if you will, their warm elation
When finally they see the light of day.

Masterpiece! Tongue

(2017-04-27, 6:07 pm)Nukemarine Wrote: Of course I'm not at the more abstract words yet (approaching 2000 right now), so time will tell.

Understood!

I asked because I'm still not totally convinced about not doing something similar.
In the past I tried cloze deletion and it seemed quite effective, but it was frustrating for words with many similar words.
Of course I could add hints, and I did, but it took so much time...

So I'm still unsure on what to do, if simple recognition deck, or cloze-deletion / eng-to-jap (as you do).

I must add that thank to a lot of extensive reading I have absolutely no problem with readings, the only reason why I'm going to start a new Anki deck is to reinforce listening comprehension and possibly even production.

So my cards will look something like this:

Quote:FRONT

せいふ
「―の役人」
------------
BACK

政府
a government; an administration;

So, word on front BUT in hiragana, followed by one or more example sentences.

OR, a cloze-deletion alternative, with definition and cloze sentence on front.
Edited: 2017-04-27, 6:33 pm
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