I don't know how other people approach it, but the few chains I've made so far are focused on the keywords of RTK1, not on the stories around those keywords (well, sometimes a bit of the story or image if the keyword is abstract).

Same here exactly. I think it's best to stay away from details of the kanji mnemonics, to avoid making associations with the elements of the kanji themselves, and causing possible confusion later when recalling the kanji.

Hmm.. this just made me think. I guess it could show just like for RTK I stories, with keywords bolded....

I have uploaded a new version of the *work in progress* ON YOMI Review & Study area.

What to test in this update:
- adding & editing compounds
- entering your tags & stories for on groups
- reviewing ON readings
- reviewing exemplary compounds

Currently reviewing just takes all the flashcards and shuffles them, there is no database updates. Compound flashcards will have their own reviewing schedule similar to the kanji flashcards. Onyomi flashcards I don't know yet, but the idea is to remember the kanji that was tested so that you can check if you made your kanji chains correctly. On the other hand it would be good not to have to test onself 2042+ times 3,4,5 stacks. Compound reviews also act as ON reading reviews, so the ON reviews will probably have a simpler reviewing schedule, maybe just a cycle with one stack.

What's next:
- story could be same as Study page, with keywords formatted in bold text.
- rtk3 kanji will not show up but will be added manually
- adding new kanji to the on group : kanji from rtk3 or beyond
- delete kanji chain (removes corresponding ON review flashcards)
- rtk2 index numbers, so if you have Remembering the Kanji Volume II, you can quickly find the exemplary compounds in the book and enter them for your own reviews.
- probably showing the "failed" kanji (red stack) in the kanji chain list, if any
(imho, those can be reworked straight away into the kanji chain, but if there are too many, I dont know, 5 or more, it may be better to put off the kanji chain and clear up the failed kanji separately first).

Please test away and post any problems you find or suggestions you may have, thanks!

PS: hit "reload page" once when in the onyomi review area.

What yorkii said, it is quite essential if you want to get a proper start.
I'd say do not worry too much about starting to sort frequent from infrequent first time around. Let people sort out that themselves if they think it is a big problem to learn rare readings.

Other than that, blimey. This is looking real good. I am very very very impressed. I believe that you are very close to actually be the first to make a formal kanjichain study system on computer. I mean I've never heard of anything like it. The system works rather well. I just think you should expand the kanjichain story window a bit. its quite tiny considering the huge stories that has to go in there. You can edit them elsewhere of course...

Last edited by Immacolata (2006 July 18, 6:49 pm)

Hit "Refresh/Reload page" in your browser to refresh cached Javascript and CSS files.

I'll try to add an option to output all stories on one page (so you can save the html page in yoru browser), in the next changes. It seems more inportant to me in this kanji chain section than in the Kanji Study area. As someone pointed out earlier, it's useful to keep the kanji chain stories to be able to come back at a much later time and add new kanji to the groups (kanji beyond rtk1). They will be remembered anyway, just like for the RTK 1 stories, but since they are more involved, re-reading them later may help restore the images for the location.

I am not at the reading part yet, but those statistic are really interesting as I've never really looked into the number of readings...
A good majority only has one reading which is good. 
And you idea of only learning 2 reading per kanji with the kanjichain system seems quite considerate...
Just making a　list with voacabulary exemple for those kanji where you should learn some extra meaning could be good enough or maybe some ppl would prefer to integrate in the actual chain. I've not yet gone through making the chain but I am really looking forward to be able to read the kanji.
BTW what about kun-yomi. Do you know how maybe would need to be learned for RTKI?

ok, back to review for me !!

To really be efficient interface for story working you need a shortlist of kanjis that are involved

now you have to scroll down many pages. I have excel sheets with all relevant Heisig onyomis liste like this

カ
可　can
下　below
化   change

etc. If I must sit and mouseover it just takes too long time, not to mention I do not have an overview when I must scroll down 3 to  4 times on big chains. So right now I am using a word document to make my stories, where I have listed all the relevant kanjis and their keywords in a table.

I've been looking at the kanji chains and onyomi review sections of the website and it's all very impressive. Hats off to Fabrice.

With RTK 1, I was always of the opinion that it could integrate well with other areas of Japanese study. I stated this quite a few times and I still believe it. The idea of creating images in your mind to help remember how to write a kanji is a good one and I don't believe that those images need to be distinctly related to English. There have been numerous posts about worries people have about the inadequacy of keywords and the advice of everyone who has completed RTK 1 (including Heisig) is that these worries should be allayed. In time, the English key word would be replaced by Japanese words and their meanings.

My goal with RTK 1 has been to create memorable images and stories but not to create a key word label that will abide in my memory for as long as I study Japanese. I want to remember the image of the choir master instructing the two choir singers in 唱 but I don't want to forever associate the word 'chant' with the kanji, its meaning and that image. In fact, I am currently working on a method to keep reviewing the RTK 1 stories and images I have created but remove the associated Heisig keywords. More on that later.

My proposal is, why don't people try to make kanji chain stories in Japanese rather than English? (In other words, start getting rid of those English key words) Why do people choose labels like "Ants!" and "Adults only" for the ア reading instead of using Japanese words? Why is there no space for example sentences of the words being learnt? Lets face it, if 近状 is in the ジョウ chain, you're learning how to pronounce it, you already know how to write it, why not learn how to use it in a sentence too?

I hope people will see that I don't have any problems with the method as a whole, I'm just suggesting alternative ways of operating within that method. Ways that I think will be of greater benefit in the long run.

One last query I have that I hope people will respond to: Is there anyone who would consider themselves of intermediate level or above who is currently using the kanji chains method? If so, how do they do it and how does it integrate with their spoken and written Japanese?

astridtops wrote:

For me, learning kanji and onmyoji is learning building blocks before I start learning vocabulary, so that I don't have to learn everything twice (first in hiragana, then again with the proper kanji attached).

I don't quite follow the logic of how you won't be learning things twice by doing the onyomi first. If you follow the kanji chain method, then it involves taking example compounds. You learn the readings for these compounds but you're not learning them as you would vocabulary in your text book (if I'm understanding correctly). However, if you want to study this compound properly then you will at some point have to study it as you would vocabulary in your text book. How it's used and how to use it. In doing this, you will automatically be using the pronunciation when you practise speaking it. Even if you hadn't done all that work on the onyomi readings then you would still learn the pronunciation of the compound at this stage. This means that you're spending time on the pronunciation of the compound when you learn onyomi for the kanji and when you study the word properly. Twice.

I think you illustrated the point well with your example of 会社. You already know that word well because you use it often when you speak, you read it often and you hear it often. So attaching the kanji to the reading is a breeze thanks to RTK 1. Why don't you do all words in that order? i.e. if we want to assemble a kanji chain, would it not be better to learn all of the compounds in that chain thoroughly before progressing to the next one?

Last edited by wrightak (2006 July 23, 10:41 am)

wrightak wrote:

i.e. if we want to assemble a kanji chain, would it not be better to learn all of the compounds in that chain thoroughly before progressing to the next one?

I have to say that I haven't started RTK2 yet, so I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean if you use the word Kanjichain. I've looked at the Kanjitown method and that one makes perfect sense without even having to add compounds at first. After all, if I make a story about the アン　building and place 4 kanji there, I don't need to add compounds at that time. But I'm confident that I will remember that (one of) the reading(s) of a certain kanji is アン　and I'll be able to look it up in my Wordtank that way.

That's what I mean when I say building block. I'm simply removing the obstacles that make Japanese vocabulary harder to learn than a European language. Eventually, I can learn vocabulary the way that works best for me, like reading novels. And to be honest, having the Heisig keywords can be a blessing if you're trying to read a novel. When I started out with the English language, I never looked up each and every word of a novel I was reading. Sometimes I simply guessed the meaning from the context, or from crossreference with Dutch, German, French and Latin. That's not always accurate, but then you don't need to be entirely accurate if you're reading a novel. The Heisig keywords allow me to skip looking up a reading if the meaning of the compound is perfectly clear. A while ago, I read the first chapter of Twelve Kingdoms in Japanese, and I found the compound created by the kanji for 'lacquer' and 'black'. Well, the meaning looked obvious to me, especially in the context, and I didn't bother looking it up at that time. If I see it more often, I might get curious and find out what the exact reading is after all.

ファブリス wrote:

So for those kanji that become frequent in our reading, I guess we do less and less effort to recall the story, and the story fades away,

I don't want that story to ever fade away. I always want to be able to recall it. You said that you're doing calligraphy Fabrice, I'm sure you'll understand. If you want to write in Japanese with a pen and paper regularly then there will be some kanji that you don't see in a while. When you try to write it again then you know the general shape from your visual memory but you can't remember some small details. 'Is it a gate or a door on the left of ところ?' This is where the story is essential. If you want to remember all 3000 kanji then there will be many that you don't see often. Even worse, there will be some that you see often over a short period, so they enter visual memory, and then you don't see them for a year or so. If you don't keep that story in your mind you won't be able to write it. I think the majority of people on this forum are using RTK to help with their reading so things are different there. However for people who write in Japanese regularly the stories and images are good but the keywords get in the way.

ファブリス wrote:

As for using Japanese, I think the idea comes from fear of being dependent on the keywords. In fact, personally, I think it's best to stick to the english keywords, because that way we havea clear distinction between the "artificial" information we used to remember the Japanese so efficiently, and the Japanese characters or words that we wanted to remember in the first place.

I'm not afraid of being dependent on keywords, I'm just tired of them because they get in the way. You're right, they're only just temporary hooks. So why prolong their existence by using them all the time in your kanji chain stories? When you say "artificial" information are you talking about the keywords, the stories or both? I think that the story doesn't need to be distinguished. The story is great and should be recalled when thinking in Japanese. The keyword on the other hand, should be distinguished from the mind and replaced with the concept and reading of the kanji.

Again, I think you gave another fantastic example with 写真. You already knew the sound of the word, you knew how to use it, all you wanted to do was attach the kanji. Why don't you do it this way round with every word? Learn how to use it first and attach the kanji later instead of taking a random word you don't know, learning its reading and waiting until you encounter it in the future before you actually get a grip on how to use it and what it really means?

Immacolata wrote:

Zap. You can only use 255 characters. Are you serious? I got like 6 kanjis into my KA story, then Im told that I use 445 characters but only 255 is available. I hope that is an oversight from the RTK1 module. I need way more space for my stories. Some of them are a few kilobytes long.

yea, this is faaaar too short. like you immacolata, i too am using a word document for all my stories too. i am also highlighting the words in the kanji chain in the story. this helps me navigate to the section of the story where that kanji's "keyword" first appears. just like in the "shared stories"   on this site.