Does anyone have/know of a list of the everyday kanji that the average Japanese person would know which are not included in RTK1 (ie not joyo kanji)? I havent got RTK3 but I assume it contains many kanji that are not generally known by most Japanese people.
Last edited by samuize (2007 April 08, 12:12 am)
Well if you read the beginning of RTK3, it talks about the author wanting to touching
on many common kanji that didn't appear in RTK1. So maybe you should try looking through RTK3 first.
Also, asking for an "a list of the everyday kanji that the average Japanese person would know" is like asking someone to write down all the English words the average native English speaker would know.
At best, you can order the kanji by frequency. But even if they appear most frequently in articles/newspapers/essays/books/etc, there's no guarantee that people actually read them frequently or at all..... :-)
I think the best you can do is find a few Japanese and ask them to mark the kanji that they do and don't know. Don't be surprised if their answers are NOT similar.
Lastly, don't be lazy and settle for "average". Know all the kanji and you'll be better at reading than most japanese. Today, I had an older native Japanese person tell me that I probably know more kanji than their brother. I wasn't expecting to get such a compliment.
So...yeah.....don't settle for average!.......... :-p
Last edited by chamcham (2007 April 08, 12:36 am)
OK fair point, a list of kanji that the "average" person would know is a bit impossible, but does anyone have examples of non-joyo kanji that are definitely common eg 丼、貼る etc?
I am (of course) a huge fan of the Heisig system but one disadvantage is that you have to learn kanji that you may very rarely ever see again before you learn more common kanji. This relates to the "I dont know That Kanji!" thread but I think it is worth flagging up both kanji in RTK1 that are very rare and kanji not in RTK1 that are common.
Being better at kanji than the average Japanese person is definitely a great goal to aim for but I would like to learn to read and write as well as a typical Japanese person first and then study the rare kanji afterwards
Have a look at this thread if you haven't already. It might be useful.
The Japanese Proficiency Exam specifies 114 relatively common non-joyo kanji to be studied for Level 1. They are listed below with the Heisig number alongside. The final six are not in Heisig. (I have suggested names in brackets)
Last edited by Katsuo (2008 March 11, 11:08 pm)
I am a bit skeptical of that list. I somewhat doubt that the JLPT would require anyone to know non-Joyo kanji, but from personal experience the following are kanji from that list that I believe I have seen quite often without furigana:
呂 24 (in 風呂)
旦 30 (in 一旦, though I heard that my friend wrote this character for some Japanese people and they didn't recognize it, perhaps because it was out of context)
只 53 (in 只今)
奈 1094 (in 奈良 and lots of other names)
伊 1161 (in Italy-related words and many names)
藤 1210 (occurs in myriad names pronounced as ふじ or とう)
宛 1417 (often written out in hiragana instead)
岡 1961 (in names)
稽 2088 (in 稽古)
或 2091 (in 或る or 或いは)
喉 2164 (on the buildings of ear, nose & throat doctors)
叩 2166 (often seen with furigana, but often seen without it too)
嬉 2207 (very commonly seen without furigana as 嬉しい)
拶 2261 (in 挨拶)
撫 2270 (usually has furigana but today I saw it without in the word 愛撫)
惚 2277 (usually has furigana but I think I've seen it without)
沙 2296 (this and the following one in ご無沙汰しております)
紐 2661 (this and the following 3 quite common and often occur without furigana, but 謎 often does have it)
醤 2746 (used to spell 醤油)
頬 2792 (usually has furigana but I just saw it today without)
殆 2871 (used to spell ほとんど, which is usually written all in hiragana)
那 2960 (i've seen this used in names quite a lot)
茹 (I think cookbooks would usually have this without furigana)
Most of the other kanji on the list Katsuo posted are quite familiar to me, but of the ones I've seen, they've almost always had furigana. Of course the amount of furigana you see varies by the level of sophistication of what you're reading. A history book for adults would have words without furigana that would either appear as hiragana or would have furigana in a novel for adults. A lot of cooking-related words are so common that they are seen without furigana even when they're non-joyo kanji. But a lot of the time such words would also be likely to appear as all hiragana, without any kanji.
This last one is not on that list and is not part of the joyo-kanji, but expect to see it a lot without any furigana on product packages.
Last edited by JimmySeal (2007 April 08, 4:56 am)
The list above comes from the book 日本語能力試験出題基準 published by Bonjinsha (凡人社). The kanji list for level 1 dates from 2002 and was unchanged in the 2004 edition. I believe a new edition has just been published, but I haven't seen it yet. The book seems to be a guideline for Japanese native speakers who set questions for the test rather than for students who are taking it.
They also specify nineteen uncommon joyo kanji to be omitted from the test:
Yah, I've seen that list before, though I didn't know where it originated, but it still surprises me. The omitted list surprises me a bit too because while 75% of those are uncommon, 奴隷, 但し, 男爵, 伯爵, and 脹れる are pretty common words and usually appear without furigana. Still, I doubt that those lists are going to have changed much since 2004, if at all.
Last edited by JimmySeal (2007 April 08, 6:19 am)
From the omitted list these are the only ones I have to make an effort to recall (if I can do it at all) are these: 畝帥錘虞. I would also add 逐迭 to the list. I do think some others of them are very uncommon - such as 匁 - but they've been easy for me to remember. All in all, there's not much use in trying to pick useless kanjis out of the jouyou set, there won't be enough to be worth the effort.
I'm going to go out on a limb and tell people to stop being crybabies.
Just tough it out and you'll reap all the rewards. The Heisig method is meant
to be learned in the order that it's presented. Skipping around or omitting kanji will do
you more harm than good and make it harder to remember kanji and primitives.
So stop all of this nonsense about trying to find a shortcut by trying to only go for the "important" kanji. Oddly enough, many of the "rare" kanji frequently occur in names, even if no one ever uses vocab associated with that kanji. I've found this to be true of many kanji that had unusual keywords.
Once you make it through RTK, then everything is just review.
For some inspiration, there's even someone that'll turn 60 soon who finished Heisig just fine. It's in this thread (http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?i … action=new)
If a 60 year-old will a full-time job(and probably a family) can get through
it with ease, then you surely can.
Last edited by chamcham (2007 April 08, 3:19 pm)
But OP specifically asked for those common kanji that aren't in RTK1. I think it's safe to guess that OP is dilligently plowing through RTK1, but the whole of RTK3 isn't necessary for most people and there are several people here who are doing it out of order because there are 8-900 that they feel they won't need anytime soon. I don't think such a discussion as this is unreasonable.
Thanks for the very useful info everyone!
LoL. I swear this is the last time (^_^) but I thought it worth mentioning that I've seen kanji 2712 (dare) more times in the last week than I've seen many of the general use kanji.
On Tv, on randoms sites, and even in videogames; I had begun to think it was just one kanji I completely forgot. It is not in the turkey sections. I would have never found it were it not for that list (okay, not never).
But you get what I'm saying.