Suggestions for 舛-radical

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lernsky Member
From: Germany Registered: 2009-03-23 Posts: 54

Sorry, this became a long post! I hope you will find it's worth reading.

I'm not very happy with the meaning of 舛, currently denoted as 'sunglasses'... so I investigated how to fit all occurrences best. Actually it turns out, that the original meaning of 'dancing' fits kind of well, although a more generalized keyword should be used instead. Please read...

At first some facts. RTK1 covers 4 kanji that use it:
817:    瞬    wink
999:    傑    greatness
1311:    隣    neighboring
1774:    舞    dance

RTK3 covers 5 kanji using it:
2051:    憐    sympathize with
2052:    燐    phosphorus
2053:    麟    camelopard (giraffe)
2054:    鱗    scaled (fish)
2915:    舜(蕣)    Rose of Sharon

Not in RTK:
-:    磔    crucifixion

The radical 舛 occurs solitary (1) or as extended version (2,3,4):
1 - -:        舞 (dance)
2 - tree:    傑 (greatness), 磔 (crucifixion)
3 - crown:    瞬 (wink), 舜/蕣 (Rose of Sharon)
4 - rice:    隣 (neighboring), 憐 (sympathize with), 燐 (phosphorus), 麟 (camelopard), 鱗 (scaled)

I noticed the biblical background of 舜 (Rose of Sharon) and 磔 (crucifixion), so I investigated and found that in the bible Jesus calls himself "Rose of Sharon":
"I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys." (Solomon 2,1)

In order to understand the picture you need to know that for a crucifixion the guy was first tied or nailed to a cross beam and - after carrying it to his hanging site - lifted up to a vertical pile or tree.

So my suggestion is to combine the part of 舜 ('Rose of Sharon', further occurrence in 瞬='wink') and the right part of 傑 ('greatness') and 磔 ('crucifixion', not in RTK, though) to the picture of 'Jesus tied to the cross', denoted by the keyword 'crucified'.

In detail:
- The left part of 舛 is an abbreviation of the 'flesh' or 'meat' radical.
- The right part looks to me like a "toll bar" or a simple bar, to which the flesh is tied to or speared upon - in this case Jesus' body, tied to the cross beam. I will suggest a vivid keyword, when I'm about to explain 舞 (dance). For now, keep in mind, that 舛 is 'flesh tied to a bar'.
- Above, there is a 'crown' of thorns that the King of the Jews wore at that time.
- And there are 'vultures' cruising above the almost dead body.
- Below there is the 'tree' or 'wooden' pile to which the body has been lifted to, resulting in a cross.

Although this picture doesn't occur as a whole, the two versions can easily be distinguished, as the 舛-radical limits the picture either topping the 'tree' (傑, 磔) or being the bottom under the cruising vultures and the crown of thorns (瞬, 舜). If the upper version or the lower version is asked for can be decoded in the story - see below.

Now let's first cover the aforementioned kanji, using the new keyword 'crucified'.

-    磔    crucifixion (This is for volunteers only ;-)
"Imagine Jesus not only being crucified, but also people throwing stones at him, as the ultimate punishment. Of course the lower version of 'crucified' is asked for, as the stones can't reach as high as the vultures are cruising, and more often tend to hit the tree than the body."

817:    瞬    wink:
"If Christians wanted to show their belief they had to be careful, if they didn't want to be crucified (similar to the fish symbol they drew in the sand). So they gave each other special winks with their eye. The vulture in 'crucified' giving winks as well to its potential prey. Similar to the fish symbol where one line had to be answered by the second line, a secret wink of the eye has to be answered by a second wink, hence the upper version of 'crucified' with the vulture's eye (a Christian vulture?) and its win-g/k on top."

999:    傑    greatness:
"Jesus, a man of greatness was crucified. He is the main figure of the greatest religion in the world (>2 billion believers). Whereas the crucifixion itself was a great-mess, imagine blood running down the pile."

2915:    舜(蕣)    Rose of Sharon:
"Solomon 2,1: "I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys." says Jesus. Imagine a Rose having thorns = Jesus, being the rose, having a crown of thorns."


Now let's get back to the 舛-radical, that's part of 舞. The left part symbolizes 'meat' whereas the right part stands for a bar or a pole. It turns out that a pole dancer symbolizes - almost naked - exactly that constellation: flesh wrapped around a pole, with the only difference that the pole stands vertical, which is almost pictographic here: There is a vertical pole and two arms attached to it, a naked body (=flesh) following the arms, doing wild circles around the pole (erotic, or rather aerobic, isn't it? ;-). Hence the second meaning of 舞 (to circle) is covered as well. And the keyword should be 'pole dancing'. You should resist inserting that picture of a pole dancer into that of 'crucified' (and maybe even Jesus winking with his eye "I'm fine!"), or you will get a blasphemic, nevertheless very funny picture ;-) Resist...!

1774    舞    dance:
"Imagine yourself standing in the bathtub, playing the air guitar (which is kind of a dance) and then switching over to pole dancing, of course there is no pole... It's just wild dancing. But still, it's like nothing(ness) materializes into something. Well, your hot dancing at least heated up the bathing water."

Now, let's head on to the last kanji, covering the 舛-radical with 米 on top, comprising 隣 (neighboring), 憐 (sympathize with), 燐 (phosphorus), 麟 (camelopard) and 鱗 (scaled). I suggest to use 'bird droppings' for it. Please read...



1311:    隣    neighboring
"Crucifixions usually took place outside, but neighboring the city walls (Note: the bulbous outer face of the stones of a city wall points to the right!), a distance that you could throw grains of rice from the pinnacle at the miserable easily - to feed him. As you all know, it never rains but it pours... and shit happens... The vulture in 'crucified' is replaced by its rice like white grainy droppings, covering the crucified, who is dancing in agony even more, because of the caustic effects of the guano in his wounds. However, it's not Jesus covered in bird droppings, God wouldn't allow such, and the guy has no crown. It could be anyone. Or is the crown covered in guano?
Notice: The tree isn't needed, as it's all happening above."

2052:    燐    phosphorus
"Phosphorus is mainly obtained by mining the humongous amounts of bird droppings on Pacific islands like Nauru and Kiribati. And of course phosphorus is inflammable. One modification of it (white) even is self-igniting and was (and is) used in fire bombs. The white grains (米) of phosphorus would stick (粘) to the skin like rice, while burning, causing the victim to dance in agony."

2051:    憐    sympathize with
"Note: Read 2052 first.
Be it someone being hit by bird droppings or a victim of a phosphorus bomb, in both cases you'd spontaneously sympathize with the one."

2053:    麟    camelopard
"A deer hit by bird droppings would be spotted enough to easily be taken for a camelopard, right?"

2054:    鱗    scaled
"Scabbing a fish, the scales (rice like sticking to the fishskin) are usually removed before disembowling. The fish dances in agony. Actually it's more like dandruff, white flakes (rice like, but flat as the scales of a fish) coming off the head of a wildly dancing person."

Maybe you can find a better picture for the last kanji... smile

Have fun!

Last edited by lernsky (2011 January 15, 8:06 am)

Louismi New member
From: Manchester Registered: 2010-09-01 Posts: 3

I was calling it "dancing girl" but I got busy with other stuff and I couldn't revise. Now that I'm revising everything again I had troubles to bring the picture to mind so I am going to associate it with pole dancing. The first bit will be the evening, when this activity normally takes place, the vertical stroke is the pole and the remaining the two legs on the pole. The bit longer of the lower stroke stands for the body of the "ballerina".

Reply #3 - 2012 March 18, 6:42 pm
Mearisanwa New member
From: Germany Registered: 2011-12-16 Posts: 4

This is awesome. I know this thread is a bit old, but I just wanted to say thanks - I wish there was more discussion of radicals like this! How did you do your researching, I mean how did you check which Kanji contained that specific radical/primitive? I came here through your link on the "wink"-page (#817) and I'm thinking about doing it like this for some of the future primitives. Knowing what will come might influence the choice of your picture.

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Reply #4 - 2012 March 18, 8:10 pm
Katsuo M.O.D.
From: Tokyo Registered: 2007-02-06 Posts: 887 Website

Mearisanwa wrote:

how did you check which Kanji contained that specific radical/primitive?

On the Internet there are some sites that have multl-radical look-up. E.g. WWWJDIC or Ben Bullock's page. If you have Rikaichan or similar suitably set up then a right-click on the resulting kanji will give its Heisig number.

If you know the primitive name then it's also possible to use one of the Google Docs spreadsheets I made that includes look-up data. Searching using the primitive name should give the kanji that contain it. (But note the data has not been proof-read and may contain some errors and omissions.)

Reply #5 - 2012 March 20, 4:52 pm
Mearisanwa New member
From: Germany Registered: 2011-12-16 Posts: 4

Ah, really useful links! I think I was looking for that exact same spreadsheet (that I came across once, but hadn't bookmarked). Many thanks!

Reply #6 - 2012 June 22, 9:45 am
lernsky Member
From: Germany Registered: 2009-03-23 Posts: 54

Thanks Mearisanwa! Glad it was of some good.

Reply #7 - 2012 June 22, 10:12 am
yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3624

lernsky wrote:

I noticed the biblical background of 舜 (Rose of Sharon) and 磔 (crucifixion), so I investigated and found that in the bible Jesus calls himself "Rose of Sharon":
"I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys." (Solomon 2,1)

The Song of Solomon is not Jesus' words.

Reply #8 - 2012 June 27, 1:16 am
Teskal Member
From: Germany Registered: 2009-02-21 Posts: 133

lernsky wrote:

- The left part of 舛 is an abbreviation of the 'flesh' or 'meat' radical.

Thats not correct, the left part is from Evening. I think that the reason for sunglasses.

(The left part is from the Katakana of the syllable WI and comes from Well.)

But I like your thoughts. I think it will make it easier the next time when I start with heisig. There were Primitives for which I couldn't find a good story. A new look on the parts could really help.

Last edited by Teskal (2012 June 27, 1:18 am)

Reply #9 - 2012 June 27, 1:31 am
kitakitsune Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2008-10-19 Posts: 1006

Teskal wrote:

lernsky wrote:

- The left part of 舛 is an abbreviation of the 'flesh' or 'meat' radical.

Thats not correct, the left part is from Evening. I think that the reason for sunglasses.

(The left part is from the Katakana of the syllable WI and comes from Well.)

But I like your thoughts. I think it will make it easier the next time when I start with heisig. There were Primitives for which I couldn't find a good story. A new look on the parts could really help.

舛 is a pictograph of two feet and both the left and right sides of this radical are variants of 止. 止 being a pictograph of a footprint with an original meaning of FOOT and now meaning STOP.

Of course they are visually similar to 夕 and ヰ but this modern similarity is unrelated to the historical evolution and etymology of the character.

Last edited by kitakitsune (2012 June 27, 1:39 am)

Reply #10 - 2012 June 27, 1:44 am
yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3624

In any case it would be impossible for a Chinese character to have any parts be "from" a katakana.

Reply #11 - 2012 June 27, 4:30 am
Teskal Member
From: Germany Registered: 2009-02-21 Posts: 133

kitakitsune wrote:

Teskal wrote:

lernsky wrote:

- The left part of 舛 is an abbreviation of the 'flesh' or 'meat' radical.

Thats not correct, the left part is from Evening. I think that the reason for sunglasses.

(The left part is from the Katakana of the syllable WI and comes from Well.)

But I like your thoughts. I think it will make it easier the next time when I start with heisig. There were Primitives for which I couldn't find a good story. A new look on the parts could really help.

舛 is a pictograph of two feet and both the left and right sides of this radical are variants of 止. 止 being a pictograph of a footprint with an original meaning of FOOT and now meaning STOP.

Of course they are visually similar to 夕 and ヰ but this modern similarity is unrelated to the historical evolution and etymology of the character.

Ah, your right, when I read the japanese wiki-article about this radical correct. :-)

yudantaiteki wrote:

In any case it would be impossible for a Chinese character to have any parts be "from" a katakana.

But the ヰ was made from the Kanji 井, that's what I meant.

Reply #12 - 2012 June 28, 7:26 am
konakona24 New member
From: New Zealand Registered: 2012-06-27 Posts: 1

For "Dance" I took the image of glasses to donate a rough but rich and powerful Yakuza... sitting in a tub/bath with DANCING girls DANCING around the bath for his entertainment... =p

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