For now (given the mostly lack of story contributors), I suspect that only a handful people are doing RTK3 kanji at the moment. Not nearly enough for analysis, as you already suspected. Most people who finish RTK1 prefer to do more reading or vocab oriented study.

I would suggest going another road: having people who actually live in Japan and use the language and the kanji daily give an estimate of how frequent a certain kanji is encountered. For me, the motivation to do RTK3 came from the compound for chair, 椅子 (いす), which is actually a part of the JLPT4. Well, probably not the kanji, but the word. Since I hate learning things twice, I figured that many of these kanji were actually needed and used. But I don't live in Japan, or am good enough with the language to make that difference, I'm sure other people could differentiate far better in how common a kanji actually is.

One other RTK3 kanji which I think should have been in RTK1 is 俺 (おれ) which is seen even in young people's manga in kanji form. People refer to themselves as おれ far more commonly in manga, I suspect, than in real life!

I remember saving a list of frequently occuring non-常用 a couple of years ago, I think it originated from someone on the sci.lang.japan news group. I can't remember where I found it but I think it might be this:
http://dict.risukun.com/HighFreqNonJouyou.htm

which links from here, which is a look up engine with some interesting features:
http://dict.risukun.com/

Pangolin wrote:

One other RTK3 kanji which I think should have been in RTK1 is 俺 (おれ) which is seen even in young people's manga in kanji form. People refer to themselves as おれ far more commonly in manga, I suspect, than in real life!

I remember saving a list of frequently occuring non-常用 a couple of years ago, I think it originated from someone on the sci.lang.japan news group. I can't remember where I found it but I think it might be this:
http://dict.risukun.com/HighFreqNonJouyou.htm

Thanks, that's a nice link.

JimmySeal wrote:

astridtops wrote:

For me, the motivation to do RTK3 came from the compound for chair, 椅子 (いす).

いす is a very common word, but the kanji would very rarely appear without furigana, and certainly wouldn't be tested on any level of JLPT lower than 1 (and probably not 1 either).

This goes for a lot of kanji.  The word 奇麗 is written with Joyo kanji that appear in RTK 1, but this too would probably have furigana most of the time.

I'm quite sure I encountered it at least once in a Japanese text without furigana. I can't claim I read a lot of Japanese, though... I remember it so well, because my eye fell on it, and I was angry that I couldn't remember which kanji it was, as it looked so familiar. I grabbed my RTK1 to look it up, and then found out it wasn't a kanji of the official list.

FWIW, here's the intersection of heisig 3 kanjis and my "reading" flash card set. I add kanjis to the reading set when I can recognize them from a list without context and remember one word for them (including which part of the word they're used for). This magical "oh, looks like I know this kanji now, too!" thing mostly happens for relatively common kanjis in the texts I read, and I only read modern stuff (almost all written in the last 10, all in last 50 years; mostly manga and books written for a young audience and random stuff/chat on the net). There may be a few that have stuck when I've looked things up in a dictionary, though.

In the end, I think that the best list for you is the one you make yourself, as people read different things and a kanji common to one person may be extremely rare to another. (e.g. 劫 is here because it is used as a Go term, and is probably somewhat obscure to non-Go players; even in Go it is more commonly written in katakana. Still, there are some people in the world who can only recognize a handful of kanjis, including this one, because it is used in some Japanese Go problem books they have. Maybe some Buddhists, too, but I wouldn't know about those.)

丼也云些仇仔俺倶僅儲兎兜冥冴凄凧剃剥劫勃匂匙厨叉叩叱叶吊吠吻呆呑呪咎咳唄唖唾喉喋喧喰嘗嘘嘩噂噌噛囁國坐垢塞塵壷壽妖妬妾姐姦姪嫉嬉尖尤尻屁屍崖嵌巫巾庇廻弥忽怯恰悶惚惹憑憧或戚拭拳拶挨挫捉捻掴掻揃撫撰斐斧斬於旺昏昧晒曖杓杖杭枕柵桁桶梟棘棲椅椎楯槌槍欝此歪殆毬氾汝汰汲沙泪洩淋淫湧溜溢溺灼焚煉煎煽燐燕爺爽牢狐狗狙狸狼玲珈琲甥甦痕痩癌眉眩瞭砦碗禿稀筈箸篭籤糞紐絆綺綾緋繋罵翔耀肘股肴腑膝臆舵芯苅苔苛苺茸莫萌萎葵蒔蒼蔭蕎藁藍蘇蘭蛙蛾蜂蝋蝕蝿螺裡裾覗訊訣詫詮誰諜諦諺謎豹貌貰貼蹴躇躊轟轡辿迂迄迦這逢遥那酎醒醤釘釜鋏鋲錆鍋鍵鎚閃闇隈隙雀雛雫鞄鞭頃頬顎餅餌馴騙髭鮨鯖鯛鱈鱗鳳鴨鷲鷹鹸麺鼠鼾龍

Thanks for the list, I've been think about this since I posted the lists above ("Other Occasionally Encountered Kanji" and kanji "purported to be needed for the JLPT1"). After reading wrightak's "High speed RTK1" thread, I came to the conclusion that although I'm not keen on streamlining RTK1, doing the same with 3 might be another matter.

As RTK3 is structured with all new primitives at the beginning (there are around 50) it's logical and relatively easy to learn these, but after that, there doesn't seem to be any great disadvantage in picking and choosing which kanji to learn (other than in having to keep track of which ones you have learned).

So if this is the case, a condensed list of more commonly seen RTK3 kanji could be compiled, students would have the option of learning these first, and then perhaps filling in the gaps later.

I compared your list with the ones I mentioned above from Jim Breen's site, and interestingly there had 129 in common - about half of your list! Combining them would create a list of 399 kanji (the kanji in Jim Breen's list contained RTK1 non-jouyou kanji, and I have eliminated those):

丼 也 云 些 仇 仔 伽 佃 俄 俺 倶 僅 僑 僻 儲 兎 兜 其 冥 冴 凄 凧 剃 剥 劫 勃 匂 匙 匡 卿 厨 叉 叩 叱 叶 吊 吠 吻 呆 呑 呟 呪 咀 咎 咳 哨 唄 唖 唾 喉 喋 喧 喰 嘗 嘘 嘩 噂 噌 噛 囁 國 坐 垢 埴 堆 堰 堵 塞 塵 壕 壷 壽 妖 妬 妾 姐 姑 姥 姦 姪 娼 嫉 嬉 寓 尖 尤 尻 屁 屍 崖 嵌 巫 巴 巽 巾 庇 庵 廻 弥 忽 怯 恰 悉 悶 惚 惣 惹 憑 憧 或 戚 戴 拭 拳 拶 挨 挫 挺 捉 捲 捺 捻 掴 掻 揃 摺 撒 撚 撫 撰 斐 斑 斧 斬 於 旺 昏 昧 晒 暢 曖 曙 曝 杓 杖 杭 枕 柴 柵 柿 桁 桶 梟 棘 棲 椅 椎 楕 楯 榊 槌 槍 樺 樽 橘 櫛 欝 此 歪 殆 毅 毬 氾 汎 汝 汰 汲 沌 沙 泪 洩 淋 淫 淵 湧 溜 溢 溺 潰 澱 濠 濡 灘 灼 炒 焚 煉 煎 煽 燐 燕 爺 爽 牌 牢 狐 狗 狙 狸 狼 獅 玩 玲 珈 琲 瑞 甥 甦 畿 痕 痩 癌 眉 眩 睨 瞭 砦 碗 磯 祇 禿 稀 稽 窺 竣 竿 筈 箸 篭 籠 籤 粟 粥 糞 紐 紘 絆 綜 綴 綺 綻 綾 緋 繋 繍 纂 纏 罵 翔 耀 肘 股 肴 腎 腑 腔 腫 腺 膝 膳 臆 臼 舵 芯 苅 苔 苛 苛 苺 茅 茜 茸 茹 莫 萌 萎 萩 葛 葱 葵 蒔 蒼 蓋 蔭 蕎 藁 藍 蘇 蘭 虻 蛋 蛙 蛾 蜂 蝋 蝕 蝿 螺 裡 裾 覗 訊 訣 詣 詫 詮 誰 諜 諦 諺 謎 讃 讐 豹 貌 貰 貼 賑 跨 蹴 躇 躊 轍 轟 轡 辿 迂 迄 迦 這 逢 遥 那 酎 醒 醤 采 釘 釜 銚 鋏 鋲 錆 錫 鍋 鍵 鎚 閃 閏 闇 隈 隙 隼 雀 雁 雛 雫 霞 鞄 鞍 鞭 頃 頓 頬 顎 餅 餌 馳 馴 騙 髭 鮨 鯖 鯛 鰯 鱈 鱗 鳳 鴨 鵜 鷲 鷹 鹸 麹 麺 黛 鼠 鼾 龍

(Note that Jim Breen's list has non-RTK3 kanji in it, so those are included above.)

Raulir, if you are interested, the kanji from Jim Breen's lists that were NOT in yours are as follows:
伽 佃 俄 僑 僻 其 匡 卿 呟 咀 哨 埴 堆 堰 堵 壕 姑 姥 娼 寓 巴 巽 庵 悉 惣 戴 挺 捲 捺 摺 撒 撚 斑 暢 曙 曝 柴 柿 楕 榊 樺 樽 橘 櫛 毅 汎 沌 淵 潰 澱 濠 濡 灘 炒 牌 獅 玩 瑞 畿 睨 磯 祇 稽 窺 竣 竿 籠 粟 粥 紘 綜 綴 綻 繍 纂 纏 腎 腔 腫 腺 膳 臼 茅 茜 茹 萩 葛 葱 蓋 虻 蛋 詣 讃 讐 賑 跨 轍 采 銚 錫 閏 隼 雁 霞 鞍 頓 馳 鰯 鵜 麹 黛

By the way, is there a spreadsheet or other digital format list of the RTK3 kanji floating around?

Last edited by Pangolin (2006 December 09, 12:48 pm)

Thanks for this helpful list, here's a little more help for anyone wanting to use this list.  Sorry that it's so long, and that some keywords could be wrong (i.e. I haven't checked them at all), so any corrections are welcome!

此    H2043    this here
柴    H2044    brushwood
砦    H2045    fort
些    H2046    whit
髭    H2047    beard
燐    H2052    phosphorus
鱗    H2054    scaled
庵    H2056    hermitage
俺    H2058    myself
竣    H2062    complete a job
臼    H2063    mortar
鼠    H2065    mouse
綴    H2073    mend
妖    H2078    bewitched
呑    H2080    quaff
籤    H2082    lottery
雛    H2085    chick
尤    H2087    understandable
稽    H2088    training
采    H2090    grab
或    H2091    a
斬    H2092    chop off
兎    H2093    rabbit
也    H2094    est [to be (classical)]
巴    H2096    comma-design
巾    H2101    towel
云    H2102    quote
莫    H2105    shalt
俄    H2110    abrupt
佃    H2111    work a field
仔    H2113    animal offspring
仇    H2114    foe
伽    H2115    look after
僅    H2116    trifle
僻    H2117    biased
儲    H2118    make a profit
僑    H2120    emigrant
倶    H2124    mate
凄    H2133    uncanny
冴    H2134    sharp
凧    H2139    kite
鳳    H2142    phoenix
剥    H2145    peel off
剃    H2146    shave
匂    H2147    aroma
雁    H2150    wild goose
厨    H2152    kitchen
哨    H2154    scout
咎    H2156    reprehend
囁    H2157    whisper
喋    H2158    chatter
嘩    H2160    quarrel
噂    H2161    gossip
咳    H2162    cough
喧    H2163    clamour
喉    H2164    throat
唾    H2165    saliva
叩    H2166    bash
嘘    H2167    fib
呪    H2169    curse
吠    H2170    barking
吊    H2171    dangle
噛    H2172    chew
叶    H2173    within my ability
吻    H2174    sides of the mouth
噌    H2177    miso
唄    H2178    pop song
叱    H2179    scold
呆    H2181    dumbfounded
喰    H2182    ingest
埴    H2183    clay
堆    H2185    piled high
壕    H2186    dugout
垢    H2187    blemish
堰    H2191    dam
堵    H2192    railing
姦    H2194    violate
妬    H2195    jealous
娼    H2198    harlot
姪    H2201    niece
嫉    H2202    envy
姥    H2204    aged woman
姑    H2205    mother-in-law
姐    H2206    young miss
嬉    H2207    overjoyed
寓    H2211    imply
牢    H2213    jail
塞    H2214    block up
屁    H2218    fart
尻    H2220    buttocks
屍    H2222    corpse
崖    H2227    bluffs
嵌    H2229    fit into
庇    H2236    overhang
鷹    H2237    hawk
弥    H2241    more and more
粥    H2243    rice gruel
挨    H2248    shove
掴    H2249    clutch
捺    H2250    impress
捻    H2251    wrenching
掻    H2252    scratch
撰    H2253    assortment
拭    H2254    wipe
揃    H2255    muster
摺    H2258    rubbing
捉    H2260    nab
拶    H2261    imminent
撚    H2266    twirl
挺    H2267    counter for tools
撫    H2270    petting
撒    H2271    sprinkle
怯    H2275    wince
惚    H2277    infatuation
憧    H2280    yearn
恰    H2281    as if
湧    H2284    bubble up
泪    H2294    teardrops
沙    H2296    grains of sand
淫    H2298    lewd
澱    H2300    sediment
氾    H2301    widespread
汝    H2303    thou
濠    H2306    moat
溺    H2308    drowning
淋    H2310    solitude
溢    H2315    brimming
汰    H2316    cleanse
潰    H2319    defile
灘    H2321    rough seas
汲    H2322    draw water
溜    H2324    cumulation
沌    H2326    chaos
汎    H2327    pan-
濡    H2329    drench
釜    H2332    cauldron
斧    H2333    hatchet
爺    H2334    grandpa
狸    H2338    racoon dog
狼    H2339    wolf
狗    H2341    pup
狐    H2342    fox
狙    H2344    aim at
獅    H2345    lion
苺    H2350    strawberry
萩    H2351    bush clover
萎    H2355    numb
苔    H2356    moss
蘭    H2363    orchid
芯    H2368    wick
蕎    H2369    buckwheat
藍    H2371    indigo
苛    H2373    bullying
苛    H2373    bullying
蔭    H2374    behind the scenes
萌    H2377    germinate
蘇    H2380    resurrect
茅    H2385    grassy reed
苅    H2387    mow
蓋    H2388    lid
葱    H2389    onion
葵    H2391    hollyhock
茸    H2394    mushroom
蒔    H2395    sowing
葛    H2398    kudzu
蒼    H2399    pale blue
藁    H2400    straw
茜    H2407    madder red
辿    H2413    track down
這    H2414    crawl
迂    H2415    detour
逢    H2417    tryst
遥    H2418    far off
迄    H2421    until
隙    H2426    chink
隈    H2427    nook
憑    H2428    possessed
惹    H2429    attract
悉    H2430    withou exception
忽    H2431    instantaneously
惣    H2432    firstborn son
曖    H2437    equivocal
晒    H2444    bleaching
昧    H2445    obscure
曝    H2447    air out
曙    H2448    dawn
旺    H2450    effulgent
昏    H2451    dusk
腎    H2453    kidney
股    H2454    thigh
腑    H2456    viscera
臆    H2460    cowardice
膝    H2461    knee
肘    H2464    elbow
腔    H2465    body cavity
腺    H2466    gland
腫    H2467    tumor
膳    H2468    dining tray
枕    H2472    pillow
櫛    H2476    comb
槌    H2477    wooden hammer
椅    H2480    chair
柿    H2481    persimmon
桁    H2483    girder
杭    H2484    picket
榊    H2490    sacred Shinto tree
橘    H2494    mandarin orange
棲    H2496    roost
杖    H2504    cane
椎    H2505    sweet oak
樽    H2506    barrel
柵    H2507    palisade
杓    H2510    wooden ladle
楯    H2513    escutcheon
樺    H2515    birch
槍    H2516    lance
桶    H2530    bucket
楕    H2531    ellipse
毬    H2533    furball
焚    H2537    kindle
煽    H2540    fanning
煉    H2542    firing
灼    H2544    refulgent
煎    H2548    roast
斑    H2556    speckled
瑞    H2563    fortunate
玩    H2567    toy
玲    H2568    tinkling
癌    H2576    cancer
痩    H2577    lose weight
痕    H2578    scar
眩    H2581    dizzy
瞭    H2582    obvious
眉    H2583    eyebrow
碗    H2591    teacup
磯    H2594    rocky beach
祇    H2600    local god
禿    H2606    bald
稀    H2611    sparse
窺    H2613    peep
妾    H2622    concubine
裾    H2624    hem
竿    H2632    pole
篭    H2638    cage
箸    H2640    chopsticks
纂    H2641    redaction
筈    H2646    should
糞    H2653    excrement
粟    H2654    foxtail millet
繋    H2655    link up
絆    H2658    ties
緋    H2659    scarlet
綜    H2660    synthesis
紐    H2661    string
紘    H2662    chinstrap
纏    H2663    summarize
繍    H2665    embroidery
綺    H2667    ornate
綾    H2668    damask
綻    H2670    come apart at the seams
舵    H2674    rudder
蛋    H2683    protein
蝿    H2685    housefly
蜂    H2687    bee
蝋    H2688    wax
螺    H2691    screw
蛙    H2693    frog
蛾    H2694    moth
罵    H2699    insult
戴    H2702    accept humbly
讐    H2707    vendetta
謎    H2709    riddle
讃    H2711    compliment
誰    H2712    who?
訊    H2713    query
訣    H2714    split up
詣    H2715    visit a shrine
諦    H2716    give up
詮    H2717    elucidate
詫    H2721    beg pardon
諺    H2723    proverb
諜    H2726    secret agent
轟    H2729    rumble
貌    H2733    countenance
豹    H2734    panther
貼    H2736    affix
貰    H2737    get
賑    H2739    bustling
蹴    H2742    kick
跨    H2744    straddle
醤    H2746    soy sauce
酎    H2748    hooch
醒    H2750    awakening
麺    H2752    noodles
麹    H2753    malt
銚    H2755    keg
鍋    H2757    pot
鍵    H2761    key
鋲    H2763    rivet
錫    H2764    tin
釘    H2766    nail
鎚    H2769    hammer
錆    H2771    rust
鋏    H2773    scissors
閃    H2774    flash
悶    H2775    agony
闇    H2777    pitch dark
雫    H2778    trickle
霞    H2779    haze
鞍    H2782    saddle
鞭    H2783    whip
鞄    H2785    briefcase
頓    H2788    immediate
頃    H2791    about that time
頬    H2792    cheek
顎    H2795    chin
餌    H2797    feed
蝕    H2800    eclipse
餅    H2802    mochi
馳    H2805    rush
騙    H2806    cheat
馴    H2807    tame
鯛    H2812    sea bream
鰯    H2813    sardine
鱈    H2819    cod
鯖    H2820    mackerel
鮨    H2826    sushi
鵜    H2832    cormorant
鷲    H2834    eagle
鴨    H2835    wild duck
梟    H2837    owl
塵    H2838    dust
冥    H2841    Hades
坐    H2844    sitting in meditation
挫    H2845    sprain
洩    H2849    dribble out
兜    H2854    helmet
爽    H2855    bracing
欝    H2856    depressed
劫    H2857    kalpa
勃    H2858    erection
巽    H2861    southeast
歪    H2862    warped
黛    H2864    blue-black
鹸    H2867    lye
燕    H2869    swallow
嘗    H2870    lick
殆    H2871    almost
牌    H2873    mahjong tiles
覗    H2875    peep
雀    H2878    sparrow
隼    H2879    peregrine falcon
耀    H2880    shimmering
戚    H2882    relatives
丼    H2884    donburi
暢    H2885    carefree
廻    H2886    circling
畿    H2887    capital suburbs
毅    H2889    stalwart
匙    H2891    wooden spoon
匡    H2892    set straight
肴    H2896    entreat
斐    H2897    symmetrically patterned
卿    H2898    magistrate
於    H2900    within
尖    H2903    sharp point
壷    H2904    crock
甥    H2910    nephew
叉    H2914    forked
拳    H2917    fist
巫    H2930    sorceress
翔    H2933    soar
棘    H2938    thornbush
甦    H2940    resuscitate
鼾    H2944    snore
唖    H2958    babble
迦    H2959    Sanskrit ka
那    H2960    interogative
珈    H2962    jeweled hairpin
琲    H2963    beaded hairpin
轡    H2965    bridle's bit
淵    H2966    abyss [old]
裡    H2973    back [old]
龍    H2981    dragon [old]
國    H2988    country [old]
躇    H2994    dither
壽    H2995    longevity [old]
躊    H2996    hesitate

NC = Nelson Classic:
炒    NC2749    broil, parch, roast, fry
轍    NC4640    rut, wheel track

Others (not in any English language reference I know of):
其       
呟       
咀       
捲       
睨       
籠       
茹       
虻       
閏       


C.J.

Last edited by cjon256 (2006 December 19, 1:27 pm)

Having a look at cjon 56 list for the OTHERS (not in any English language reference I know of)

"DRAGON (OLD)" AND "BAMBOO" PRIMITIVES mean "basket" with the kun yomi "kago"

The top one is a primitive for "winnowing device" or "chess piece" if referring to heisig. I saw this one on kanjiclinic.com.  The meaning is that with the kunyomi "sore"

The one with "flower" and "likeness" perhaps means "BOIL" which is saw in Colloquial Japanese, it's that or I confused it with "eggplant".

Does anyone know the character "nagasaki" means; it's a kun yomi??? The primitive elements are "Fish" and "Double Back". The whole thing on the right is used in the kanji for "RESTORE"

Maybe lankydan's post has something to do with this:

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/t_ash20/20070122/p1
T-shirts that say "鰒 NAGASAKI"

Apparently, あわび and ふぐ are two of the 12 prefectural fish of Nagasaki:
http://www.zengyoren.or.jp/sea_fish/ken … akana.html

According to this page, 鰒 is ふぐ and 鮑 is あわび, though my IME says differently:
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:fZD … =firefox-a

Last edited by JimmySeal (2007 October 03, 7:46 am)

I think this is them all.

龍  瀧  寵  壟  蘢  朧
瓏  隴  襲  聾  籠  龕