I hovered around 80% throughout, some days better, some worse.  Since I finished, my rates improved, except on the occasional day I can't be asked and just failed a ton.  These cases are when the story's on the tip of my memroy, but...

I would be reluctant to say recall<90% means I and others like me suck, because part of the point of self-directed learning is to figure out what your individual parameters are and adjust accordingly.

Last edited by billyclyde (2007 November 17, 12:48 pm)

I have been adding info on my daily previews and added cards to a spread sheet for about one and half months now and my average recall rate over that time is about 95%. The daily recall rate is usually something between 90% and 100% but I have had bad days too.

I think that, as long as the average stays at about 95%, I'm good but if it goes below 90%, I'll slow down and start looking for what I'm doing wrong.

Last edited by alantin (2007 November 17, 4:48 pm)

Generally 80-95% is best. The effort vs reward curve is not linear, and the jump from 80->90% may take half the effort it takes to jump from 90-95%. The goal is not perfect recall - if you fail something you can study it again. The goal is the most efficient use of your time. 90% is nice if you have it, but I wouldn't worry if your recall is less. Less than 80-85% and you may want to start doing something differently

Last edited by resolve (2007 November 17, 5:41 pm)

I've been having problems with this as I've been trying to go at a pace of 50/day now. The old cards are fine, it's just when it comes for that day 3 review it is hell.

So now I'm doing a review system before I add a set of cards and test them. Whenever I finish my story with a kanji, I add the keyword on one side of a flashcard (hand-made and small, I cut 5x3s into fourths) and the kanji in small writing on the other side. I don't write my story on the card (though I write all my stories down somewhere). That's too time consuming.

Then my schedule goes something like this (keep in mind I'm still learning 50 new ones while doing this)
Day 1: Review the set I made yesterday at least 2-3 times depending on how well I remember it. Basically, review it as much as I can until its grained into me.
Day 2: Review in the morning when I wake up. Correct any problems I have at the time. Review once more at night.
Day 3: Do not review the stack of cards in day 3
Day 4: Review at night once, and if I have any problems, correct them. Add the cards to RevTK and test them the next day.

I just started this a few days ago and have had a 2 day haitus so haven't be able to fully follow through with it. But my cards that I've been funneling through the system have been very memorable now. How this will play when I go a week without review, I'm not sure. But it can't be any worse than not reviewing them more before you add I suppose.

It also keeps what I've been doing a lot more organized and will force me to add cards to the site consistently. Before I would go at 50 a day and sometimes just not add them on the site until after 2 days later (without having reviewed them either) and then I have 150 kanji I made stories for but haven't added to the site...

@naniwa

I agree. I tried forcing my way through the book fast, but it wasn't for me. In the long run, it only took all the fun from it when I had lots of other stuff to do.

Now I'm taking it slowly and the only absolute must is to review every day and keep the red stack to a minimum. Sometimes it feels that I'm not going anywhere, but all the cards I add, I'll keep.
I think, I'll pick up some speed during the Christmas holidays when I don't have to worry about school..

Anyway, I think it's better to get the kanji solid in your head, instead of having them in your red stack..

Naniwa, may I take exception to your stated view, or at least how you said it?

naniwa wrote:

I'm quite sceptical about the  benefits of rushing through RTK while only scoring 85% or less on your reviews. I certainly don't think you can say you have completed RTK if you are getting anything less than this in your reviews.

If that is your standard for yourself, fine, but by your high standard's I'm just fooling myself, and the 1500 cards in my fourth stack are worthless.  But I guess that's why I'm doing self-directed learning, where I am best judge of my own progress, right?

Naniwa, my main point is that I bristled at the absoluteness with which you stated your position.  If you were describing your own methods, they're fine, but to make a blanket statement about having an accuracy less than a certain percentage is, in my opinion, insensitive and not particularly helpful to others who may be struggling, or just going along at 80% with no worries.  Hopefully we all have the same goal, and the difference between 80 and 90% retention along that road need not invite blanket statements about whether one has truly "finished" the book.

I think the recall rate is not really that important while you are doing RTK. If you follow the Leitner system, then you will see the failed cards all the time and you'll eventually get to remember them. The system adapts to your recall rates.

What's true is that if you have low recall rates then it will take longer to complete the book as you will be doing more reviews. But there's not much you can about that. Your recall rate reflects your ability at learning kanjis and that's something that will vary from person to person. It's inevitable that different people will have different recall rates. You can try to improve your story-making abilities and become better, but again not everybody will reach the same level. So, it's somewhat absurd to try to set a target number. The only thing you can do is accept your current recall rate and keep on working.

The recall rate that matters is when you've reached the end of the book. How good should it be? Considering that the 2042 kanjis are all important if you want to read Japanese, then a high recall rate would be necessary. But I think that depends on your level of Japanese. If you're still at a low level, then I think you could definitely content yourself with a lower recall rate and move on to other parts of the language. If you don't know some kanjis that you need, then you'll get to review them as you learn vocab.

That approach is somewhat sacrilegious to the Heisig method, and it's definitely cutting corners, but I think that it will work on a practical basis. You just have to keep on reviewing to eventually reach a higher recall rate. I think that an 80% rate would be somewhat of a minimum. That's 408 unknown kanjis. Below that, you would probably have too many holes in your knowledge to neatly fill them up afterwards.

As a final objective, 95% would probably be acceptable depending on the time it takes you to get there. That's still around 100 unknown kanjis, but again if you see them often you will end up remembering them. I think it's important to keep in mind that the time spent on Heisig is time not spent on learning something else. There's no point in being too much of a perfectionist

I'd just like to stress that daily review pass rate doesn't equal long term retention rate.  If you do 100 reviews a day and fail 20% that is just 20 kanji, or 1% of the whole book.  Its not such a big deal.

Your long term retention rate will be higher than the daily review pass rate.  Its the nature of spaced repetition; you will review new and problem kanji a lot more than the ones that you know well.

Actually, its probably worth talking a little about spaced repetition.  We all should know by now that memorising lots of stuff is not just about working yourself harder, but also efficient reviewing.  Its the job of the SRS to schedule your reviews at the correct time to achieve your desired retention rate.  On more sophysticated SRS programs like Supermemo, you can set whatever desired retention you like.  If you want 95% it will make it happen... by asking you to review much more often than if you pick 90%.  (ReTK website uses a simple Leitner system that should work fine for most.  Some users may be able to boost their memory by using a more adaptive SRS, like Mnemosyne, Anki or SuperMemo).

So here's my opinion.  I think if you want the SRS to work well for you, you should follow what its telling you.  If you have any failed or expired cards in any stack, its telling you to review them, so do it.  This will optimize your memorisation.  If you just rush to finish the book and leave cards to pile up, you're wasting some of your memory efficiency.  The longer you wait, the more the trace of your memory will disappear and it'll become harder to learn.

The further along I get into RTK the worse my L0-L2 rates get. There have been cards that I've gotten wrong 4-5 times before I got it right!

I can't let failed kanji stop me from adding new cards though. Otherwise, for me at least, it would take me forever to finish RTK1. I'd be stuck trying to get my recall rate up, while simultaneously dealing with expired cards (which happen in huge numbers lately). I don't think I'd have the energy or motivation to add any new ones.

So, even though my recall rates are steadily getting worse (with new kanji), I'm just pushing along. What you will find, regardless of your percentages, is that the stacks to the right will just keep getting taller Those stacks are the ones where I think your recall rate is important.

I think eventually, when we're finished with RTK1, we will all have excellent recall rates. I mean, think about it, no not as much new kanji, mostly reviews for a while. But for those of us still working with the book, I think it would be best to just keep pushing along and not focusing so much your percentages.

Now that I think about it, are you guys all finished? Because it sounds like you have amazing recall rates: 85%, 90%! Wow, I wish!

Is a kanji considered learned right after you finished writing your story 1st time?  Is it learned after a few hours?  Is it learned after you've had at least 1 successful recall after 24 hours?  Is it learned after its in the 4th stack?  I'd say the latter, but some might have different ideas.

I concur. It's an error to consider kanjis in the first or second stack to be learned. You might have tested these kanjis right after having memorizing them. The real test comes when you have let a few days go by. Also, if you rely on the first stack as a gauge of your performance, it can lead you to focus on the wrong things. It's easy to learn droves of kanjis and review them right after to keep your first stack green. I would advise to focus on the third stack and to consider that you have learned X number of kanjis only when they hit that stack. It's good for motivation too. If you focus on the first stack, you'll probably get depressed if you fail too many after a first review. I like to think of the first and second stacks as kanjis "on probation".

I can't let failed kanji stop me from adding new cards though. Otherwise, for me at least, it would take me forever to finish RTK1. I'd be stuck trying to get my recall rate up, while simultaneously dealing with expired cards (which happen in huge numbers lately). I don't think I'd have the energy or motivation to add any new ones.

I think this kind of situation is why Heisig is so much easier when you can devote sufficient time to it. If you keep pushing through too fast, then it will only get harder and you will be slowed down. On the other hand, I understand that your motivation will suffer if you don't keep learning new kanjis. That's why I think it's better to focus on the third stack. You should get your motivation from getting kanjis up to there and not focus on the first two. Every time you get a kanji to the third stack, you have learned a new kanji. Think of expired cards not as a chore, but as an opportunity to get those kanjis up to that magical third stack.

Just to clarify my original question, I'm thinking about the percentage of kanji you remember correctly while reviewing and studying RTK.

I was personally getting around 85% and up. That was when I was finishing the book and working at least 4 hours on it everyday. I had time not to let the expired cards pile up for more than 24 hours. If you let them sit there for a few days, than your recall rate will obviously be lower. As Vosmiura explained very well, you can have the recall rate you want depending on the frequency of reviews. And for a given frequency of reviews, your recall rate will depend upon your personal ability. My advice is to stick to your SRS system. Don't let expired cards pile up and don't worry too much about the recall rate. Of course, if it's something like 50% and you're following what the SRS is telling you, then perhaps you're doing something wrong.