Gingerninja wrote:

The 日本語上手! got tiring at first, but then I didn't even notice it.  Kind of like being stared it, it is what it is, I'm wasn't about to let it worry me.  I mean I heard a Japanese friend say it to a Chinese friend, who was clearly fluent and was doing her full degree at my exchange Uni, so it's not like she sucked or anything.  It's just a set complement / thing that they say.  Just say thank you, or not yet i still suck, and the conversation changes without even another mention.

It's either this (insincere compliments) or the direct American/Western style of "HAHAHA! Your English sucks!" sincere mockery (or phrases to that effect).

Personally, I think the former is better for everyone.

JimmySeal wrote:

nadiatims wrote:

Should someone really have to translate everything back into english just because they are talking to an english speaker?

They wouldn't be translating.  They'd just be speaking English.

This.

Re: -さん
My Japanese colleagues address me by my first name, which is relatively rare even in Polish, followed by -さん, and this is happening outside of Japan. How common, or foreign, your name is is irrelevant because the honorifics are attached not only to names. For example: お手伝いさん、お客さん、社長さん.

Last edited by Inny Jan (2012 May 24, 6:19 pm)

nadiatims wrote:

It's translating in the sense that, it is the japanese words that come to mind first and I would need to consciously avoid using them. To me a konbini is just the word for convenience stores in japan. Like it or not, it's just the word that people (japanese or foreign) use. Seems silly to rebel against that.

This is exactly right.

nadiatims wrote:

Seems silly to rebel against that.

Shame you don't understand significance of such a stand.

Inny Jan wrote:

Shame you don't understand significance of such a stand.

Theres a word in linguistics where people, usually bilingual users. Mix words from languages in their conversation. The term for it evades me at the moment. Its extremely common in bilingual Spanish families and its been shown that words just aren't chosen haphazardly for which words are used. But it has been shown that just about every multilingual user tends to mix words.

Last edited by vix86 (2012 May 24, 9:25 pm)

Yeah,from my post it might appear I'm being very naïve. But still, I don't think it's a cultural issue in a strict sense.

I don't know how you feel when they address you with -さん, but I feel it weird/I think it's funny. I know I contradict myself because it piss me off when don't do it and I feel it weird when do it. I guess the fact they never addressed me with -さん make me feel it weird when they suddenly do. Here is what I mean....

Karate Kid wrote:

Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: Yeah, I guess so.
Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk.

Come on!
Ok, ok ...they're speaking English, that's why it is that weird....but I can't help to think it is funny (to a certain degree) when they do the same in Japanese too.

This is my guess: they are not likely to use -さん after a name like Grzegorz, Chloe or Svetoslav but they are aware that 漢字圏 names need it. Language has strange rules sometimes. If native speakers feel it unnnatural, they won't use it.  There is no malice, they're just talking their (not politically-correct?) language the way they feel more natural. Is that because of the 日本人論? Maybe.  But I keep thinking that there is no malice in what they do.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying speaking generally. If some people use "chink", "gook", "chinaman" just because they were raised in a biased environment/country and "they feel it natural", I think those people are racist and disrespectful. I just believe the use of those derogative words and the 呼び捨て thing are completely different matters. One implies negative feelings against an ethnic group, one creates two different behavior patterns: one for 漢字圏 names and one for the other names.

edit:typo

Last edited by Shakunatz (2012 May 24, 11:47 pm)

In response to the use of Japanese words when speaking English -
I think it really depends on the context. To me the best practice is to speak in such a way that results in the lowest combined stress for both the speaker and the listener while conveying the information as accurately as possible.

For example:
I was reading manga and eating some kakinotane on the shinkansen yesterday.

If I were speaking to a foreigner who knew some Japanese, I would use the sentence as is. I could say "I was reading comics and eating crackers on the high-speed train yesterday," but some information is lost. To me (and I think to most westerners) "comics" sounds like Spiderman or Batman. And it's just too much work to describe specifically what kakinotane is so it just gets shortened to cracker, but, once again, information is lost because cracker sounds like a saltine or Ritz or something.

With that said, I think saying:
I'm going to noru my jitensha to the ichiban-chikai jidohanbaiki to kau some ocha.

is madness.

I want the same thing as Debito, a completely "liberal" (in the 19C sense of the word) society were everyone is seen as a free and equal citizen regardless of the way he/she looks or originally comes from.
Like Debito I want a society free of all racism where the color of your skin is as relevant, or rather irrelevant, as the color of your hair.

But it is a question of means to an end.

Debito is obsessional and uncompromising. Fair play to him but I personally wouldn't have the energy to pick fights everyday with all those in the surrounding population who still haven't got the message about liberte and equalite. Life's too short.

Shakunatz wrote:

Karate Kid wrote:

Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: Yeah, I guess so.
Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk.

Come on!
Ok, ok ...they're speaking English, that's why it is that weird....but I can't help to think it is funny (to a certain degree) when they do the same in Japanese too.

This is my guess: they are not likely to use -さん after a name like Grzegorz, Chloe or Svetoslav but they are aware that 漢字圏 names need it. Language has strange rules sometimes. If native speakers feel it unnnatural, they won't use it.

If you pronounce those names correctly (as in how they would be pronounced in the language the name comes from) then yeah, adding さん would sound weird. Most Japanese people can't pronounce these names correctly though, and as soon as they're put in katakana it doesn't sound odd to add a suffix.
My name for example: Pearl. Pearlさん sounds off, but パールさん sounds completely fine.

Inny Jan wrote:

Re: code switching. I did read the article on Wikipedia and found it interesting. However, there is a distinction when this phenomenon happens in children's conversation and between adults. As an adult you are fully aware of your choice of the language you use and it's not like you have no control over what words are coming out of your mouth. If however, you choose not to control the way you speak, sorry.

As the Wikipedia article mentions, it's thought of by experts as a natural and normal part of multilingualism that occurs in every age group.

Good luck with all that self-righteousness of yours.

callmedodge wrote:

I still don`t understand the issue with code-switching or any form of mixing languages.

If your a conscious adult and code-switching then you're being lazy and we wouldn't want that now would we?! Language is serious business, speak it like its meant to be spoken! None of this "I'm going to the conbini for some ramen and oden." it should be "I'm going to the convience store for some chinese noodle and that bean paste soup with boiled eggs, fish cakes, radishes, and solidified jelly. Want some?" </sarcasm>

Last edited by vix86 (2012 May 25, 12:58 am)

About code-switching, while I haven't been to Japan yet, I've experienced a similar phenomenon living among Russian-speaking students in England. We would liberally sprinkle our speech with English words relating to our "foreign student" experience - shisha/hooka, shot (as in "a shot of vodka"), bonfire, warden, etc. The first time we got into an awkward situation because of this was when we were discussing our plans to sneak out of the dorm past curfew in the presence of the dorm warden. We thought we were safe because he didn't understand Russian, but we kept using the English word "sneak out".. A Serbian guy who was listening to this later asked "Why, is there no Russian word for 'sneak out'?" and it took us a lot of time to think of one.

I also remember thinking in English all the time back then, which affected my speaking patterns in Russian. This wasn't a problem with the other students, since we all had the same thing going on, but this proved problematic back home. This one time I came back to Russia and had to go straight from the airport to my grandparents' joint 60th birthday party. As soon as I arrived I was asked to give a toast. Naturally there were many guests there - family, friends, old classmates, co-workers, etc. I wanted to comment on how there were so many people, related or connected to my grandparents in so many different ways. Unfortunately, the word I got by directly translating the English "relate" has a double meaning in Russian - it also means "to think of X in a certain way", "to hold an opinion about X", so what I ended up saying could be construed as "all those people think of you differently - some like you, others just sorta tolerate you". Needless to say, it was really awkward.

I've also seen what happens to some of the people who keep this up for a long time - fully profficient in two languages, but don't really sound like a native speaker of either. I'm not particularly proud of the fact that my native language is Russian, but I think it's nice to at least have a language I could call my own and not sound like a phony. After all that I have become quite purist in my attitude to the languages I speak - I started making a conscious effort to avoid code-switching and I also tried to avoid thinking in English for the rest of my stay in England.

Of course, I'm not yet in a position where my Japanese could threaten my Russian or English, so I don't know if I'll have to go that radical with it if I ever get to live in Japan. Although Japanese has already taken a toll on one of my languages - Kazakh. Since there are so many grammatical similarities between the languages now whenever I try to think of a sentence in Kazakh I keep using Japanese particles instead of Kazakh ones. But then again, Russian and English aren't nearly as similar to Japanese, and Kazakh was never among my strong languages anyway, and I haven't spoken it in more than four years.

Last edited by vonPeterhof (2012 May 25, 3:22 am)