Its Debito, need anyone say more. His articles always read like borderline-tinfoil conspiracies that everything the Japanese do to a foreigner is in some way discriminating against them.

I came across this article a while back.  I don't live in Japan, but I thought it was BS.  The credibility of the article was so low for me that I stopped reading in the middle.

"Dr. Sue's research"...Too close for comfort if you ask me.

I've seen this article before and there is some truth to it but a lot of the points seem overblown. The ～さん thing for example, I get called "Kyle" by most of my co-workers who call each other ～先生. The likely reason for that is that that's what I would be called by my co-workers if I were living in America. The other teachers know this and are doing it to make me feel comfortable. They still call me 先生 in front of the students or when talking about me to an outside party just like they would use Mr. in similar situations in America. Now I understand the point of the article is not to say that anyone is doing anything intentionally (if fact it's saying the opposite) but that its harmful nonetheless. But in my book, if you take people trying to cater to you out of kindness as being insulting or offensive, that's your problem, not theirs.

The article suggests that it would be preferable if Japanese people did not assume that every "NJ" was a tourist and instead treated them like they were born and raised in Japan. Not only is that non-intuitive, it's counter productive. If I sit down at a restaurant and am brought an English menu by default should I cry prejudice for not being assumed to be able to read Japanese? If the restaurant's policy were different, the waiters would more often than not have to make two trips which doesn't seem like a lot but it adds up over time and could really annoy them, probably more than getting handed an English menu from the start would annoy me. blah blah

Last edited by thisiskyle (2012 May 22, 11:08 pm)

kitakitsune wrote:

Did you read the article though?

Yes I skimmed it over and it reads like most of his regular stuff.

I understand the point he's trying to get at, which is mostly educating people of "Hey! Theres a word for when people go "Wow! Your Japanese is good!" after you say hello, and you feel offended." But that level of nitpicking just seems absurd. There are other things you could devote your time to.

All of his articles have this tone. I can't help but wonder if they ever get published in Japanese to for Japanese readers (where he really needs to be tooting his horn). Or if he's always publishing in English rags in a circle jerk manner.

kitakitsune wrote:

I would personally be insulted if a Japanese person thought I could not handle such an incredibly simple and important aspect of their culture and language.

I would be too if that were the case. But I don't think anyone thinks I "can't handle it". There are plenty of things that a person can handle that are not natural to them. It's my understanding that they are trying to make me more comfortable, not that they think I am incapable of understanding name suffixes.

To answer your question; no, I don't.

thisiskyle wrote:

kitakitsune wrote:

I would personally be insulted if a Japanese person thought I could not handle such an incredibly simple and important aspect of their culture and language.

I would be too if that were the case. But I don't think anyone thinks I "can't handle it". There are plenty of things that a person can handle that are not natural to them. It's my understanding that they are trying to make me more comfortable, not that they think I am incapable of understanding name suffixes.

To answer your question; no, I don't.

Then are they not thinking that calling you Kyle-sensei would make you uncomfortable?

Seems to me that they think you cannot handle being called Kyle-sensei, that it would make you uncomfortable, and in order to make your life comfortable in Japan they should therefore address you in a western style.

Last edited by kitakitsune (2012 May 22, 11:42 pm)

As in, "don't call me Tomoko-sensei, call me Tomoko"...?

Last edited by kitakitsune (2012 May 22, 11:52 pm)

I'm still curious.

Tzadeck wrote:

Tomoko didn't specifically tell me not to call her さん or 先生, but other teachers have.  I call one teacher just Akemi and another Eriko, even though we actually aren't even that close (both speak a little English, but are not English teachers, and we speak primarily in Japanese).

That's very interesting. I've never had a coworker in Japan like that.

But still, we were talking about 呼び捨て and you are talking about people who have specifically asked you to do it to them. It's a little different than just doing it to the random foreigner you meet who hasn't asked you to do it.

Tzadeck wrote:

And actually, teachers don't really call each other name+先生 all that often anyway.  Teachers who have had any kind of interaction with each other usually call each other name+さん and sometimes simply 先生.  They might call another teacher name+先生 if they've barely or never really talked before.

Yes I know that but they do not 呼び捨て each-other. Some might, but they usually are the same age and have really close personal relationships outside of work.

Tzadeck wrote:

Also, plenty of Japanese people have told me not to use an honorific with their name after the first or second time meeting them, so I don't know why you've never heard of that before.  I've even gone on to call them name+さん only to be reminded that they don't want me to use the honorific.

I mentioned this when I mentioned that only good friends do it. It's probably a good sign to you that they consider you to be a good friend or that they want to be your friend in the future.

When a Japanese person asks you to 呼び捨て is different for each person. I was just being safe when I said that only really close friends do it as that is the general rule.

Last edited by kitakitsune (2012 May 23, 12:45 am)

Yea really should have posted the Psychology Today article instead of Debito's interpretation of it.

But can anyone in the community here say with a straight face that they were not thinking about 日本語上手、お箸上手、納豆たばられる and other similar comments they've received in Japan while reading the PT article?

I'd like to see if we can have a conversation about if we think the research is legit and if it applies to us in Japan and if so, is there anything we can do about it on a personal level?

Last edited by kitakitsune (2012 May 23, 1:11 am)

You're still being pretty close-minded in your responses kitakitsune.  You're accepting some points thisiskyle and I made, sort of, but then rephrasing them so that they continue to confirm your standpoint that the way foreigners are addressed is inappropriate.

Tzadeck wrote:

You're still being pretty close-minded in your responses kitakitsune.  You're accepting some points thisiskyle and I made, sort of, but then rephrasing them so that they continue to confirm your standpoint that the way foreigners are addressed is inappropriate.

To be honest, I don't think you were following the conversation before you posted. We were talking about 呼び捨て. "Kyle" instead of "Kyle-sensei", "Kyle-san", "Kyle-kun" or any other possible form of honorific.

You came in talking about how 15 teachers asked you to call them by their first name and we only find out a few posts later that you only address two of them without honorifics and they specifically asked you to do it.

amirite?

Last edited by kitakitsune (2012 May 23, 1:35 am)