rich_f wrote:

I'm considering using the Japanese Keywords as well, but I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to be duplicating my efforts on kanji-- I'm already doing KO to cover on/kun yomi.
.....
It's a tough choice, but you've done some great work, wrightak.

Thanks!

I'm afraid that I haven't been following the Kanji Odyssey thread too closely. It all depends on whether you're practising the writing or not. If you are then theoretically you don't need to worry about the Japanese keywords that correspond to the kanji that you already practise the writing for.

If you're still reviewing with English keywords then this project is designed to replace that exercise. It's all about practising the writing of the kanji in a structured way that integrates well with other Japanese studies.

nyquil wrote:

* If the japanese keyword has a different meaning than the english one, do you plan to change all your stories for kanji that use it as a primitive? For example, 呂 is associated with the keyword ふろ as in bath, instead of the meaning "spine" that Heisig gave. This will mean for instance modifying the story for 宮.

I only change stories if I think that changing them are going to make things easier for me. I didn't change the spine story or any stories for kanji featuring that primitive. The kanji that you write when writing Japanese will often have meanings very different from the Heisig keywords so it's best to get used to your stories being different too.

Although 呂 has it's etymological roots as a pictograph of a spine, I couldn't find any Japanese words that even come close to meaning anything related to spine. 風呂 seemed like a much more sensible choice.

* Right now I only test if given the japanese prompt I can write the associated kanji, not if I can write the whole word in kanji. I guess that is the way to do it, but I wonder if anyone else is trying each time to remember the whole word.

This is personal preference, and if you start by just memorising the target kanji then you can later edit the card and try and remember the entire word. I'm remembering the entire word for the majority of my cards now. What I'd try to do from an early stage is remember the reading for the target kanji.

For example, for the kanji 擁, my prompt is ほうようする. Even if you only want to remember the target kanji, it's a good idea to try and also remember that the target kanji, 擁, corresponds to よう and not ほう. This matters more than remembering the writing for the non-target kanji since it helps you to guess readings for other words.

nyquil wrote:

So suppose you get the prompt for a kanji like 宮, and you're not sure of the kanji/writing so you need the english story, do you still remember the "spine" component in your story, even though it is now associated to ふろ? I don't know if I'm clear, I'm just wondering if you keep the english meanings in your head too.
My example may not be very good, and I guess as with the english keywords, for many kanjis the stories tend to disappear when you know them well, and in the end you are left with a direct association between japanese keyword and kanji, which is what you want. I'm just a little bit curious as to what people are doing.

As they say in Japan, this is pretty much ケースバイケース. With 呂, I've learnt that it's a pictograph of a spine and I'm not likely to forget that. I didn't even bother with a story. So with 宮, I use the spine imagery. I can't think of any other examples where the Japanese keyword is significantly different in meaning from the English one AND that kanji is a component in other kanji. The case here with spine is therefore quite unique. If you can think of another case then let me know and I'll tell you what I do but with spine, that's the etymological meaning and it's a simple pictograph so I remember it and have no problem incorporating it into stories for other kanji.

An important point for me is that with cases like 'spine', it's not an English word to me. When I see the kanji 呂, I see two vertebrae in my mind but I don't think of the English word 'spine'. The reason I started this project was to remember the stories but get rid of English words and nuances that kept popping into my mind and got in the way when I tried to write Japanese.

Please note that I'm not disputing the choice of keyword here, 風呂 is such an important word I find it a great choice.

Of course, I didn't think that you were. I just found it surprising that Heisig chose the word spine and there isn't a single Japanese word that even comes close to that meaning.

Last edited by wrightak (2008 June 18, 8:38 pm)

wrightak,
your work is priceless. I'm doing well with the anki deck you provided, so thank you very much!

I do find many occasions in which I prefer to change the cards you set up. Most of the time it's just because I want to associate to a kanji another word I'm more familiar with, and in some rare cases there are little typos (like example sentences giving away the kanji). But these are no problem.
One thing that puzzles me, though, is when the same compound is used in more than one card, focusing on a different kanji in each. I wonder how you know which kanji you are asked just from looking at the keyword.
Here are a couple of examples:
しぼう（脂肪） is used for both 脂 and 肪
まてんろう（摩天楼）is used for both 摩 and 楼

There are quite a few of these occurrences. Currently I'm underlining the part of the keyword that corresponds to the kanji in the answer side, but I'm curious to know how you or others solve the problem.

nac_est wrote:

I do find many occasions in which I prefer to change the cards you set up. Most of the time it's just because I want to associate to a kanji another word I'm more familiar with, and in some rare cases there are little typos (like example sentences giving away the kanji). But these are no problem.
One thing that puzzles me, though, is when the same compound is used in more than one card, focusing on a different kanji in each. I wonder how you know which kanji you are asked just from looking at the keyword.
Here are a couple of examples:
しぼう（脂肪） is used for both 脂 and 肪
まてんろう（摩天楼）is used for both 摩 and 楼

Thanks for the kind words. Please let me know about the typos and I'll update the file and re-upload.

You make a good point with the same word being used in numerous frames. It's probably not ideal and I should choose different words. I do remember feeling particularly lazy with 摩天楼 but I quite liked that compound.

In terms of solving the problem you can either create two different prompts: し肪 and 脂ぼう (each testing you on a different kanji). Or you can try and remember all of the kanji for the entire word. Or you can underline as you suggested. Or you can choose a different word! (which I may get round to at some point).

With 脂肪, both of the kanji are similar in meaning and that word is quite common so I decided to lump them together. It's easy to remember which comes first and which comes second because ぼう and ほう are common readings for kanji containing 方. The same thing goes for し and 旨.

However, there is a positive argument. Learning the same word for several frames reduces the overall vocabulary burden and allows you to concentrate on the writing. The bad point is the extra burden involved with remembering how each kanji contributes to the meaning of the compound. But to be honest, you should ideally be learning that for all of the compounds in the list anyway.

Last edited by wrightak (2008 June 19, 7:26 pm)

mememari wrote:

I have so far completed more than half of the RtK1 using this site, and my problem is that in about a week, I will have to move probably to Anki, if I want to continue my reviews since for the next 3 months I won't be able to use the internet for studying.
I was thinking the possibility to just start from scratch in Anki using the japanese keywords, now. I mean if I want to do it at some point, I will eventually have to start again from scratch.

Just so you know, you can move to anki with your english words and with your SRS progress from this site (without having to start over from scratch). 

If your native language was English, I would say finish the English keywords first.  Mainly because there are many kanji in Wrightak's example sentences that are difficult but are easier to learn after knowing their meaning first. 
But since your not a native English speaker...it is hard to say.  Maybe you could make stories in your own language and then come back to Japanese.  For me it would be hard to start with Japanese only because there is so much I don't understand in the example sentences and what not that I imagine it would get rather frustrating. 

Also, the biggest thing you will miss by not using the internet/this site is the stories that are shared on this site.
By the way, I am amazed after reading your post that you are not a native English speaker.  (which may be reason to stick to the english first...)

A watered down version of this method can be used to distinguish between kanji with similar meanings when doing RTK1 drills. For example, I sometimes confused abdomen (腹) with stomach (胃). So now for abdomen I have:
Q) abdomen (はらがたつ の はら)
A) 腹

wrightak wrote:

Out of interest, how come you don't you delete the word 'abdomen' from that card?

I could have, but why bother?

Thanks for your anki file. Just discovered this thread yesterday and already working on your Japanese keywords. A brillant way to review the Heisig kanjis while learning new Japanese words. I like it. I'm trying to get a balance between working through your list and reading/learning Japanese texts (I'm currently adding sentences from the Read Real Japanese series).

What's throwing me off is the amount of words that I don't know. Wish that a dictionary and Revtk would be integrated into Anki (though I've found Wakan to be a good alternative with the by clipboard option)

One word that I couldn't figure the meaning out is: 副編集長. (There might have been a few more).

watashimo wrote:

One word that I couldn't figure the meaning out is: 副編集長. (There might have been a few more).

My friend is a writer for a magazine and often talks about the editor in chief and the "vice editor in chief" so I knew the word already. I had a habit of including words that I knew already and maybe vice president (Cheney or something) would be a better option. I'll update the list.

The RevTK site is integrated into the file in that if you click on the frame number, you'll go to your story. I used Kenkyusha's dictionary for a lot of the words and I highly recommend it.

Please feel free to bring up other words that you've got issues with.

hey, just a real quick question.  i'm not sure if it's been answered already in this thread or not, so sorry if it has.  but i just downloaded this as an anki deck and i'm using it.  i'm just wondering where these example sentences came from and are we sure they're correct as far as grammar and usage is concerned?

thanks for all your hard work, wright!

edit: oh, one last thing.  if you've got easy access to the info, could you tell me which cards are absent form the deck?  the deck's got i think 1872 cards in it, but it's not the last two hundred that are missing but instead several random ones.  i was just gonna try and keep an eye out as i went along and add 'em in, but i'm afraid i'll miss some and would rather just do it all at once if possible.  i thought perhaps you might have that kinda info. accessible relatively easily.  thanks again!

Last edited by LloydGA (2008 June 26, 9:01 am)

wrightak wrote:

In this particular case though, 腹 doesn't mean abdomen. The word abdomen doesn't help you to recall the story either so I was just wondering if there was a reason for you deciding to keep it in the card.

The expression doesn't mean abdomen, but doesn't the character still mean abdomen? When you get mad, doesn't your stomach churn, or stand on end? Either way, since the keywords are merely mnemonics, and disappear as soon I get comfortable with them, it doesn't matter to me. I don't know what you mean by abdomen not helping me recall my story. My body doubles over at the abdomen. Are you talking about a story with 腹が立つ perhaps?

That was a fabricated example; I know 腹 really already. But there are some other keywords that I get mixed up by sometimes. For example ardent and fervent. My card for ardent is
Q: ardent(きょうれつ の れつ)
A: 烈
This tips me off that ardent is the one that has a 列 primitive in it somewhere. I'm very familiar with 列. I'm not so familiar with the writing of 強烈 though, so deleting the ardent isn't a good idea. In fact, even switching from an english word to a Japanese word that I already know can cause extra work. Generally speaking, switching out mnemonics is a bad idea. But that's just me. I'm sure you are finding the switch to be fruitful, so good luck.

leosmith wrote:

The expression doesn't mean abdomen, but doesn't the character still mean abdomen? When you get mad, doesn't your stomach churn, or stand on end? Either way, since the keywords are merely mnemonics, and disappear as soon I get comfortable with them, it doesn't matter to me.

Sorry, from your earlier post, it sounded like you got mixed up between 胃 and 腹 so I thought that the word 'abdomen' wasn't helping you to recall the story. If it helps then I can understand why you keep it in your card.

I don't think that the character means abdomen though, I think it means stomach as you say. But Heisig already had that word so he had to choose another. If you know this already then apologies but 腹が立つ is an idiomatic phrase that doesn't really illustrate the meaning of the word or the kanji. If you want to say that you're hungry or full you say that your stomach is empty or full -> お腹がすいた（おなかがすいた） I'm hungry、お腹がいっぱい I'm full. Instead of すいた, you can also say へった and in more casual company, you can say はら instead of おなか. When I'm with male friends, I often hear はらがへった～ I'm starved. So はら and おなか are both readings for the kanji and neither of them mean 'abdomen' to me.

As a westerner, I'm still pretty confused about the difference between 胃 and お腹 but I am assured that they are entirely different parts of your body.

Giving yourself more input on the question side of your card understandably makes answering the card easier. If you have both 'ardent' and the tip off that the primitive 列 is included then it makes remembering 烈 easier than just having one prompt. However, in order to write in Japanese (not read), I need to be able to write the kanji when thinking of the reading alone. But having both as you do sounds like it could be a good method of bridging the gap and having a half way point.