RECENT TOPICS » View all
Hey all,
I registered here almost 2 years ago, and while I didn't really post, I spent a lot of time in the forums and used the review system here. I got up to about frame 600 using Anki until other priorities took over and I had to stop. I should have been smart and continued to at least make time for Anki so I wouldn't lose those 600, but I didn't.
Anyway I am back finally and ready to go again. I'm planning a trip with a friend to Japan in September and I want to get conversational in Japanese by then. For now, I am going back through RtK I, while simultaneously doing Pimsleur. My goal is to finish RtK at the same time as Pimsleur, which will be early May, and then proceed with using doramas, mangas, podcasts, etc to further learn. I still have familiarity with most of the 600 I learned so it shouldn't take long to get back up to that level.
Questions:
For those that have finished RtK, have you really found that learning the keywords of the kanji in RtK was helpful? Now that I come back to this, I wonder if learning the concrete meanings of kanji within the context of sentences isn't a better plan, since a kanji can mean several things depending on the context and compounds? In other words, aside form learning the stroke order and how to write them, did you feel the time you invested in learning Heisig's *keywords* was worth it?
I'm using the 4th edition of RtK. Is it worth upgrading to 6th? And is there a deck that matches the new frames? From what I've been reading here, the site no longer matches.
Thanks.
Derr... I actually registered here THREE years ago (almost to the day... isn't that wierd...). It's been 2 years since I last signed in is what I meant.
Welcome back. That's a great question.
It's kind of an apples and oranges thing. First: Apples. You can learn Heisig's (or any other dictionary's) 2000+ keywords in a reasonable amount of time. It'll probably take you a few months, and they'll be somewhat useful. They'll help provide you with some context for the things you read, although you won't be able to actually read. Where they really help is in the next learning phase, which is understanding vocabulary. So instead of thinking of "chikuwa" as just something floating in your oden, you'll be like, "Oh, it's 竹輪, a BAMBOO and WHEEL-shaped thing," floating in my oden. And then it tastes better, maybe.
Bottom line is you'll still need to learn a ton of vocabulary, but the keywords will help you make some sense of them.
Okay, now Oranges. This approach is working from vocabulary backwards. The advantage to this method is, as you mentioned, that you're learning words in actual context, and (presumably) learning phrases that are actually useful to you. You're also (again, presumably) learning pronunciations, which is, um, kind of useful in that you can actually speak words. RTK can be rather academic, in that you can just geek out on learning a ton of kanji and forget that there are actual Japanese people to talk to. On the other hand, the drawback to not studying RTK first is that you'll be all over the place. You'll see the word 車輪 and think, "Hey, I saw that kanji before. But what the heck does it mean?"
I questioned Heisig on this point a couple of years ago, and he said that was his entire point behind learning the kanji independent of their readings: they provide a way to make sense of the words you encounter. Without that, you're just trying to keep track of random symbols without meaning (even if the meaning of the keywords are overly constrained).
You'll probably get lots of other opinions on this, but mine is that I'd do (and I did) both Apples and Oranges at the same time. I made two Anki decks and worked them both simultaneously. One deck had kanji and keywords, and the other deck had useful sentences. When the two eventually intersect, you'll have a good understanding of the words in context.
It's slower to learn two decks rather than one, but I felt it was valuable because I was able to immediately apply what I learned to real life. If I had a problem with my landlord, I was like, "What the heck's "landlord" in Japanese anyway?" and then I'd enter that word into my Anki "Useful Sentences" deck. (Always as a sentence, by the way, rather than as an individual word.)
Hope that helps a bit. Sorry for the long reply.
Ken
For me, the unique keywords (whether you use heisigs or your own shouldn't really matter) definitely helped in learning to write the kanji. However, I didn't really find them helpful once I started actually reading stuff. Even if I can almost always go from keyword -> writing, on most situations I cannot go backwards, as in kanji -> keyword, since I never practiced it this way (because heisig advised against it, "no point doing it, it will come with time"). 6 months after finishing RTK1, on MOST cases I still cannot go from kanji -> keyword, even if I can recognize all the primitives in it, and instantly remember the story/writing from keyword. So when reading, instead of remembering keywords for familiar kanji in familiar words, I get their vague meanings most of the time. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing in the long run, just saying that for me the keywords don't really help when encountering new kanji in vocabulary for the first time.
Did anyone else have similar problem/situation, or is it just me ?
You want to be going: see a japanese word -> sound and meaning. The keywords only give you half of that and it's usually not that accurate. Meaning you're going to have to be doing a lot of dictionary lookups anyway and/or getting meaning from translations, and the pronunciation from audio or furigana or guesswork. The keywords may act as hints that help you identify some of your earliest vocabulary but really you'd get the same effect from just learning japanese words. The thing to take away from RTK is some idea of the radical meanings, writing ability and exposure to the Jouyou set.
I'm just 3/4 of the way through. In the past I have studied Japanese (not using Heisig) and learned and forgot lots of kanji. So I'm going through RTK to relearn and learn the rest of the kanji. I do find the unique keywords helpful but don't hesitate to change a keyword if it's not working for you. Or, add a hint after the keyword to get you to the right kanji, since so many kanji (and English words for that matter) have overlapping meanings. Sometimes I add in readings/vocab words if I realize that the kanji I've just learned is one that I know in a word but that I've never learned to write before to help me remember that.
Don't worry about the edition. I'm actually using an older edition than you ![]()
Thanks for all your helpful answers.
you'll probably get lots of other opinions on this, but mine is that I'd do (and I did) both Apples and Oranges at the same time. I made two Anki decks and worked them both simultaneously. One deck had kanji and keywords, and the other deck had useful sentences. When the two eventually intersect, you'll have a good understanding of the words in context
Sounds very useful, Is it possible to share your decks?

