Absolutely did not disappoint me (and I hope to be returning in a few months), but I suppose it depends on your expectations. It is far from a paradise, but I found that the good things that people say about it are generally true.

See this thread - http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=3226

There's a lot of things to like and a lot of things not to like. And a lot of these things don't depend on the country but on actual society.

I think the only major disappointment was how bad at I am at the language.

kainzero wrote:

I think the only major disappointment was how bad I am at the language.

It's this one I really fear. But I'm studying for it.

Last edited by EratiK (2012 January 31, 2:36 pm)

thejoshlord wrote:

I really hope this is true, England (well where i am in England anyway) is pretty drab, no idea why people come here from all over the world!

Could be to experience our rich culture and history. Or perhaps to study at our world renown universities. However, the weather is most definitely shit.

Japan will only let you down if you go thinking it's all sparkly rainbows and smiles.  Its a country, just like every other.  It has its good points as an outsider (trains.. that work!) and its bad points (every kid in the supermarket points at you) but overall, it is what it is, another first world country.

As for speaking Japanese, I know people who'll tell you  not speaking the language added to the fun of figuring stuff out, and just going places and doing things without really having any prior knowledge beforehand to colour it.
I'm not in that camp, and knowing I could at least communicate put my mind at ease.

Just don't fill your head with romantic ideas, be realistic and you'll be fine.  Also helps with not suffering culture shock.

Last edited by Gingerninja (2012 January 31, 7:18 pm)

I never want to live long-term in Japan, but that doesn't mean I've wasted my 12 years studying Japanese since I still intend to make a career of it in the US.  I was somewhat disappointed in Japan (although my current life in Tokyo as a grad student is much better than Tochigi as a JET was), but that's life.

ronnihonjin wrote:

For the O.P. I would stress that Japan is not a bad place per se, as long as one comes into it with their eyes wide open (lots of green tea and onsens!!! ). Many Japan forums and societies insist upon playing up the good aspects of Japan, while ignoring the bad points and shouting down those who dare to bring them up. The "team Japan" media is also guilty of this at times as well.

Nice post! I agree with what you said; more negative posts like yours do get shouted down, either with poor excuses ("racism/police corruption exists in all countries, it's not a Japanese thing") or it'll be implied that these bad experiences are somehow your fault.

This happened alot in this previous thread, when negative posts by long-term Japan residents were being refuted by people *who had never even been to Japan*. It's worth having a read through:

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=3226

I think the problem is that some have these perfect ideal in their heads, and don't want it ruined, or people have been there on holiday and have had a mostly positive experience due to it being a short visit and not seeing all the crap.

Tzadeck and ronnihonjin have very good posts that I think reflect reality pretty well.

I will mention though that much of Japan can actually differ area by area, and that is why you must apply the "Every Situation Is Different" liberally to Japan--especially when you start talking about work and doubly so if that work is in schools.

I have yet to actually be disappointed majorly by Japan, but that's mostly because I researched and read people's accounts on Japan over a span of 7-8 years. I slowly began to draw a picture of what Japan really was instead of what I had gathered from anime. When I got here I never experienced culture shock and there have only been a few instances that come close. I have now spent almost 2 years total in Japan and still am enjoying my time here. I came over for a year of study abroad and then return home and suffered reverse culture shock for nearly 6 months. I'm now back and feel back at home.

Tzadeck wrote:

For example, I remember when I first came to Japan I thought that everyone is so much nicer than in America.  But after three and a half years in Japan I went back to America for the second time, and I thought wow, people here are so nice.  Of course, the reason for this is that people are nicer in completely different ways.  When I lived in America I was used to people being nice in certain ways, but not others, so when people were nice in that other way it seemed so surprisingly nice.  Now I think of each country being nice in specific ways: like 'People in Japan are more polite than Americans,' but at the same time, 'Americans will really go out of their way to help you and be hospitable even when they don't know you well, in a very big way, much moreso than in Japan (don't get me wrong, the Japanese are more hospitable in smaller ways, just not very big ways)'  So there are certain ways that Americans are very nice, and certain ways that Japanese are.  (Those are kind of strange examples; when you take many more examples on balance it's hard to say that one country has nicer people than the other--it's just different)

I think this point of your post is the one that bothered me most. When I first came to Japan I was flabbergasted at the level of respect and customer service you can get in Japan. Its very much a "customer is always right" sort of culture compared to the shit in the US. When I returned to the states for a short while after 6 months in Japan, I turned the lens of scrutiny on the way I was treated at businesses and stores. Some might argue that its a small thing to nitpick about about countries but we spend a lot of time at stores and buying things; so IMO its a very valid point of contention. In Japan you are treated almost like royalty at shops and stores, be they large corps or small conbinis. It can vary some, but compared to what I experienced in the US it was ridiculous. Point where it was hammered home so much was I decided to take the Greyhound to visit a friend while I was back for a month in the US. Some of the most spiteful people ever. But you can apply this to restaurants, walmart, public servants, etc. Its sad really because the concept of superior customer service was once a pentacle of American business I feel. When I return back from study abroad it only got worse when I decided to work part time at a Subway and got to experience the customers.
I think this can apply to interpersonal relations between people too. I think Japanese will bend over (more) backwards for their friends than many friends in the US but this is YMMV thing.
You would really have to give some examples of where you think US is better in terms of "nice" vs Japan "nice." Its fine if they are small things, because I realize its the "small things" that really matter when it comes to choosing which place you like over the other.

There are plenty of things that frustrate me about Japan though, but they don't necessarily "disappoint" me.

Politics / Govt.
Japan has a totally dysfunctional government that IMO hasn't actually accomplished too much. Part of the problem stems from the fact that their main leader, the Prime Minister, changes about ever 7months to a year. Most people don't seem to care much about politics, but I have yet to actually be around working adults during an election so maybe my opinion will change. I will say that many young people seem to be pretty apathetic about the whole ordeal and I would not be surprised to learn Japan has worse young voter turnout than the US.

Law
Japanese law is horrendous. Basically try to never get arrested because Japan doesn't really have the "innocent till proven guilty" mentality. Its also often pointed out that Japan has something like a 90% conviction rate which is ridiculously high for a modern industrialized country. Compared to the US this is bad, but I think if you look around the world you'll find the situation is somewhat similar.

Consumer Rights
This one actually pisses me off quite a bit. In the US you have the ability to often return purchased items regardless of where you bought them and regardless of whether the box was opened or still sealed. This is protected by law. In Japan, they have cooling-off laws which are suppose to protect you in purchases, however if you buy something and use it for a bit and realize there is something wrong with it; returning it is practically night impossible. Sometimes you can reseal the box if you didn't destroy it opening it and take it back and claim you never opened it, but stuff like a TV or a stereo or the like. If you find that the quality is vastly below what you expected, you can't get a refund. I had this happen to me with a $2,000 plasma TV.

Education
Most people know about Japan's education system I think. Its very rigid and it really does not allow for much movement. The obsessive focus on testing hurts their competitiveness in the international market and no one seems to realize it.

Change
This is no different from any other country on the planet. (Insert Nationality) hate change. I feel its probably worse in Japan though, particularly in the aspect of business. The Japanese economy has been stagnate for over a decade now, for example, and no one has really done much to try and change it.

Business
This is probably the one thing as of late that has been a sore point to me. I want to stick around in Japan for many more years but I really don't want to spend my time working as a teacher. I want to get involved in something more my interest (IT). The problem though is that I despise the structure of Japanese business culture and think its a 3-legged dog. There are plenty of Western companies here but they are hard to get into. Primarily its the "Live to Work" mentality that I find abhorrent in JP business culture and at fault for the decreased birth rate in Japan. See also, working 9am-9/10pm.

While racism and discrimination are a problem in Japan, I think they are somewhat over-exaggerated by people like Debito. They are definitely problems within the system and they will probably affect you (more) negatively if you are not white. But to me though, its just something you get use to and only notice when it blindsides you in something you want to do.

All that said, I am not disappointed in Japan. My reasons for being here are quite simple really. 1) I like the girls 2) I find people here more polite at least at face than people in the US (this is a double-edged sword though) 3) I'm a consumer, I like buying stuff and Japan has a lot of the stuff I like to buy/consume.

Let me sum up the negatives by saying that one thing you have to get use to saying living here is something to the effect of "*sigh* Japan..." or "******* Japan..." or "Only in Japan" I use the last one a lot.

Last edited by vix86 (2012 January 31, 8:32 pm)

vix86 wrote:

I think this point of your post is the one that bothered me most. When I first came to Japan I was flabbergasted at the level of respect and customer service you can get in Japan. Its very much a "customer is always right" sort of culture compared to the shit in the US. When I returned to the states for a short while after 6 months in Japan, I turned the lens of scrutiny on the way I was treated at businesses and stores. Some might argue that its a small thing to nitpick about about countries but we spend a lot of time at stores and buying things; so IMO its a very valid point of contention. In Japan you are treated almost like royalty at shops and stores, be they large corps or small conbinis. It can vary some, but compared to what I experienced in the US it was ridiculous. Point where it was hammered home so much was I decided to take the Greyhound to visit a friend while I was back for a month in the US. Some of the most spiteful people ever. But you can apply this to restaurants, walmart, public servants, etc. Its sad really because the concept of superior customer service was once a pentacle of American business I feel. When I return back from study abroad it only got worse when I decided to work part time at a Subway and got to experience the customers.
I think this can apply to interpersonal relations between people too. I think Japanese will bend over (more) backwards for their friends than many friends in the US but this is YMMV thing.
You would really have to give some examples of where you think US is better in terms of "nice" vs Japan "nice." Its fine if they are small things, because I realize its the "small things" that really matter when it comes to choosing which place you like over the other.

Okay, I'll give some examples.  Just take the example of politeness when you're at a store.  I think usually Japanese shopkeepers are very polite, and will never do anything that is impolite to a customer.  They are also not personable, will not talk about themselves, and will not ask you about yourself.  So most people are very polite but also not friendly (I realize now that I used to not be able to distinguish between the two--politeness seems friendly, but it's not actually the same thing). 

In America shopkeepers are sometimes polite, but sometimes quite rude.  But if for some reason they take an interest in you, they want to talk, or they are having a good day, they will be quite friendly and talk to you and have a real conversation. 

So, Japanese shopkeepers range in politeness from polite to super-polite, but are generally very low on the friendliness scale.  American shopkeepers range from not at all polite to polite, but also from not at all friendly to very friendly.

Both friendliness and politeness are 'nice'; Japan is doing way better in the politeness department and worse in the friendliness department.

When I was in New York in October for few days I walked into a little buy-your-morning-coffee-and-newspaper typa small store and ended up having quite a long fun conversation with the shopkeeper there and thinking, 'Wow, this does not happen in Japan.'  The experience repeated itself multiple times over the course of my ten-or-so days in the states.  Not that it NEVER happens in Japan, but it only happens once in a blue moon.

Japanese people have echoed the feeling of niceness in America/Canada to me many times.  I have a Japanese friend who studied psychology in America for four years and all she talks about is how nice people were to her and how much they helped her out: people giving her rides, friends offering to do things for her, friends letting her stay at their house/apartment.  When she told me the actual anecdotes I agreed with her, "Yeah, I guess you're right, that doesn't really happen in Japan."  But, I had never realized it or thought about it before.

(There are a bunch of other examples.  One I always think of is that Japanese people are far more likely to ignore bad situations that they don't want to deal with them.  I was walking with a South African guy near the 御所 in Kyoto, and there was a guy pretty much passed out drunk in the winter.  All the Japanese people who walked by didn't even look at him.  It wasn't lke he was homeless.  He was wearing a suit and looked like he had just drank too much with his office mates and thought he would be fine getting home.  Anyway, we woke him up and made sure he was okay and all that, but nobody else did.  In America people would generally help him except in certain very big cities that consider themselves tough.

Other ones are obvious, like people sort of ignoring when girls are being rubbed against by guys on the train and things like that.  Americans would generally step in and stop the situation, but in Japan most people just kind of ignore it.

So, one nice thing Americans will do is help strangers when they think they need to be helped, even if the situation is awkward.

Of course, with all I've said, I'm just talking about how things generally go--of course there are Japanese and Americans who act differently or oppositely from the norm)

Last edited by Tzadeck (2012 January 31, 9:38 pm)

Everything I've heard about Japan leads to a certain conclusion; it's a great place to visit, but not so great a place to live in (as a foreigner).

That said I have no plans to go and live there although something like a student exchange would be interesting.

The thing I hate most about Japan? The drivers are horrible. No one EVER stops at stop signs, at least three cars always blow through the light when it turns red, and cars never stop at crosswalks unless you just start walking and hope they stop (and even then they'll sometimes swerve into oncoming traffic to go around you instead of stopping). People do not look before crossing over the sidewalk area when turning at an intersection. They only look for oncoming cars that are a threat to them instead of trying to avoid hitting cyclists (who cannot severely damage the car). I would be dead many times over if I didn't ride so defensively (even then I've been within 1cm of being hit by a car full on at least 3 times and hit by the door mirror of a car twice. gf and exgf have both been hit by cars a few times).

Hit and runs are also the norm here (both hitting parked cars and hitting pedestrians/cyclists). Very few people take responsibility.

Much of this is probably because I live in Aichi (which has the most accidents per capita in Japan iirc). Though in the end it's because there is close to zero traffic enforcement by the police and there are frequently virtually no repercussions for having an accident (many insurance plans cover everything with no deductible, you just potentially get higher rates).

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2012 January 31, 10:32 pm)

Jarvik7 wrote:

Those who rant about the legal system or racism in Japan frankly need a bit of perspective. The percentage of people incarcerated in the USA far exceeds any other country on the planet and legal fees for a defense are outrageous. While there is room for criticism regarding the pre-trial treatment of suspects (though at least you won't get shanked or raped), the prosecution only bringing trials to court for cases it is sure it will win explains most of the high conviction rate.

The US privatized their prison system and between lobbying and that; thats why the incarceration rate is retarded in the US.
--

Also, being a minority in Japan can be a good thing, so people shouldn't play it off as necessarily a bad thing.

Tzadeck wrote:

vix86 wrote:

I think this point of your post is the one that bothered me most. When I first came to Japan I was flabbergasted at the level of respect and customer service you can get in Japan. Its very much a "customer is always right" sort of culture compared to the shit in the US. When I returned to the states for a short while after 6 months in Japan, I turned the lens of scrutiny on the way I was treated at businesses and stores. Some might argue that its a small thing to nitpick about about countries but we spend a lot of time at stores and buying things; so IMO its a very valid point of contention. In Japan you are treated almost like royalty at shops and stores, be they large corps or small conbinis. It can vary some, but compared to what I experienced in the US it was ridiculous. Point where it was hammered home so much was I decided to take the Greyhound to visit a friend while I was back for a month in the US. Some of the most spiteful people ever. But you can apply this to restaurants, walmart, public servants, etc. Its sad really because the concept of superior customer service was once a pentacle of American business I feel. When I return back from study abroad it only got worse when I decided to work part time at a Subway and got to experience the customers.
I think this can apply to interpersonal relations between people too. I think Japanese will bend over (more) backwards for their friends than many friends in the US but this is YMMV thing.
You would really have to give some examples of where you think US is better in terms of "nice" vs Japan "nice." Its fine if they are small things, because I realize its the "small things" that really matter when it comes to choosing which place you like over the other.

Okay, I'll give some examples.  Just take the example of politeness when you're at a store.  I think usually Japanese shopkeepers are very polite, and will never do anything that is impolite to a customer.  They are also not personable, will not talk about themselves, and will not ask you about yourself.  So most people are very polite but also not friendly (I realize now that I used to not be able to distinguish between the two--politeness seems friendly, but it's not actually the same thing). 

In America shopkeepers are sometimes polite, but sometimes quite rude.  But if for some reason they take an interest in you, they want to talk, or they are having a good day, they will be quite friendly and talk to you and have a real conversation. 

So, Japanese shopkeepers range in politeness from polite to super-polite, but are generally very low on the friendliness scale.  American shopkeepers range from not at all polite to polite, but also from not at all friendly to very friendly.

Both friendliness and politeness are 'nice'; Japan is doing way better in the politeness department and worse in the friendliness department.

When I was in New York in October for few days I walked into a little buy-your-morning-coffee-and-newspaper typa small store and ended up having quite a long fun conversation with the shopkeeper there and thinking, 'Wow, this does not happen in Japan.'  The experience repeated itself multiple times over the course of my ten-or-so days in the states.  Not that it NEVER happens in Japan, but it only happens once in a blue moon.

Japanese people have echoed the feeling of niceness in America/Canada to me many times.  I have a Japanese friend who studied psychology in America for four years and all she talks about is how nice people were to her and how much they helped her out: people giving her rides, friends offering to do things for her, friends letting her stay at their house/apartment.  When she told me the actual anecdotes I agreed with her, "Yeah, I guess you're right, that doesn't really happen in Japan."  But, I had never realized it or thought about it before.

A lot of this is quite heavily YMMV stuff. A friend of mine was able to come to Japan and stay at the apartments of friends he met during study abroad. People will offer rides all the time, even complete strangers, I've heard of multiple people hitchhiking across Japan. I think much of this though might be a result of the fact that JP-JP interaction is different from JP-Foreigner, both countries.

I will agree with you though. "Friendly" isn't something shopkeepers do often, but I've written that off as a "Japanese culture" thing. The hill to cross for any person to be considered "a friend" can be pretty steep. This is one of those things you accept with the culture or simply just go home *shrugs*. Personally I just like my store clerks to be polite and helpful, I don't need them getting all buddy-buddy with me. It does go a long way of making you feel "welcome" but I suspect if they did that with Japanese people though (the clerks), it might put many people off. The extent of interaction at stores is usually small talk, "うわ～寒いです。　　ええ、寒いですね。”

In America people would generally help him except in certain very big cities that consider themselves tough.

Other ones are obvious, like people sort of ignoring when girls are being rubbed against by guys on the train and things like that.  Americans would generally step in and stop the situation, but in Japan most people just kind of ignore it.

So, one nice thing Americans will do is help strangers when they think they need to be helped, even if the situation is awkward.

Of course, with all I've said, I'm just talking about how things generally go--of course there are Japanese and Americans who act differently or oppositely from the norm)

I would be exceptionally careful how broad of a stroke you paint with this one. While I think that Japanese are more prone to turning a blind eye because of involving themselves in something that might embarrass both parties. You do need to realize that people ignoring a case or situation where someone might need help is common everywhere.  I encourage you to read up on The Bystander effect. It gained extreme attention in the media when a woman was murdered/stabbed in broad daylight on a busy street and no one helped. This was in the US as well.

Asriel wrote:

People please, tell me everything bad about Japan. I'm moving over there next week to be a software developer (at a western company).

So jealous...

Jarvik7 wrote:

The thing I hate most about Japan? The drivers are horrible. No one EVER stops at stop signs, at least three cars always blow through the light when it turns red, and cars never stop at crosswalks unless you just start walking and hope they stop (and even then they'll sometimes swerve into oncoming traffic to go around you instead of stopping). People do not look before crossing over the sidewalk area when turning at an intersection. They only look for oncoming cars that are a threat to them instead of trying to avoid hitting cyclists (who cannot severely damage the car). I would be dead many times over if I didn't ride so defensively (even then I've been within 1cm of being hit by a car full on at least 3 times and hit by the door mirror of a car twice. gf and exgf have both been hit by cars a few times).

Hit and runs are also the norm here (both hitting parked cars and hitting pedestrians/cyclists). Very few people take responsibility.

Much of this is probably because I live in Aichi (which has the most accidents per capita in Japan iirc). Though in the end it's because there is close to zero traffic enforcement by the police and there are frequently virtually no repercussions for having an accident (many insurance plans cover everything with no deductible, you just potentially get higher rates).

OMFG, until you mentioned it, it didn't some to mind. I hate driving anywhere. Generally my rage is contained within the car (maybe thats how bad it is that I blank it out). I could go on and on about Japanese drivers. I can not get over how bad and dangerous it is here. Its not just drivers though, its a combination of just ******* stupid people, which includes pedestrians as well. Honestly, if I only had to worry about drivers it would be ok, but I have to worry about ******* stupid drivers on the road PLUS be on the look out for the odd dimwit that is just going to ride their bike or walk straight into the road and expect cars to yield before them like they are god. I've seen people stop their car and park dead middle of the road to get out and get a pack of cigs. I've seen people stop and park on hills with curves so you have to go around and have no idea if a car is speeding around the curve. I've seen people slam their brakes on last moment and throw a signal on to turn. The obsession with backing into parking spots here (even when there isn't really a need too). The speed limit is ridiculous low for my patience. Road infrastructure is retarded. GPS is required if you need to go anywhere new to you. This is just stuff I can think of right now.

They don't police traffic that much, which I'm somewhat fine with. But heaven help you if you get a speeding ticket lol...