Right. Basically all that RTK asks for is determination, and I doubt you can get very far in Japanese study without determination. I don't think this is a harmful message. Rather, it's a useful hint that could save people a lot of wasted time, imho.

Jarvik,
I should not have used the word "minor" when referring to alterations to Heisig.  Learners who understand their own learning style should alter the method to whatever extent necessary to suit their own particular style.  There was an interesting comment about memory experts.  My father used to do a variant of the stunt mentioned.  He would memorize the names and faces of everyone in a crowded auditorium.  Then at the break, he would greet people by name as they milled around the lobby.  It's a trick and unfortunately has only minor relevance to  Kanji learning.  The reason belongs on a psychology or neuropsychology and learning forum.   

Heisig's method requires more than mere diligence, it requires good visual imaging and processing ability.  It does not tap auditory processing. It does not use sequencing to a great extent.  It uses less association than De Roo.  I know it "seems" using visual processing and imaging would would preferred; It is the easier method for the majority of people, but not for a significant minority (maybe 25%).   Kanji ABC and De Roo use a variety of processes. 

I am using a method which is probably 25% heisig and 75% De Roo.  This is not a criticism of Heisig.  I am using auditory rather than visual imaging.  Again, this is what works for me because I have poor visual processing and unusually good auditory processing ability. Kanji ABC would have been a good method for me if I were starting from scratch, but at this point, I would experience interference from my use of De Roo.   
And I might have gotten bored with Kanji ABC because is is so rote.  Those of us who are  busy, with intellectually demanding jobs, and have partners and maybe children running around, are experiencing another kind of cognitive interference. 

Best

I really really believe that everybody is capable of learning kanji.  The only question is finding the way that works best for that individual.  RTK has a lot of techniques going for it that would be helpful for a lot of people, but not necessarily all of us.  Some will go fast, others slower, others maybe another approach will work better for them. 

That's fine. 

It's still my opinion that the RTK order of learning the Kanji is a big help.  Also the decomposition into primitives (more of them than the 214 traditional radicals) is a good thing.  The idea of visual stories, linking the primitives together will be a sound technique for a lot of people.

As for criticisms, the chosen keywords are a compromise, and some were better than others.  The order is a compromise, and some kanji seem out of sequence (because they're not part of the 2042, maybe).  I suppose you have to set SOME boundaries.

It's not perfect, and it doesn't make this significant task easy.  And it doesn't work for everybody.  So, some of us try it, and it works pretty good for us.  For me, it changed "impossible" into "barely possible".  I'm glad for that.

First, as others have noted, thanks for your opening line. Too many people debate too many things without any applied knowledge. This will be a constructive thread simply because of this fact.

I agree mostly with your second point (who should use Heisig) and disagree mostly with your first point (effort).

On point 2:

When I preach the good news of Heisig I never fail to note that I believe Heisig is not for casual learners (defined as those who only want functional "phrasebook" Japanese to survive in Japan), but I also believe that it is an incredible tool for anyone else, and an essential for the serious student hoping to master kanji as quickly as possible.

I disagree with a lot your qualifications of who Heisig is for though:

it will take you a long time to complete the book in the first place

I don't think Heisig requires a huge amount of effort considering the return (more on that later).

You won't learn any japanese during that time

This is the biggest flawed argument against Heisig. Kanji is Japanese (arguably the most difficult part of Japanese). Thus, doing Heisig is learning Japanese. "But it's not applicable," people argue. It is. Within the first day I was applying my newfound knowledge to decode previously impenetrable Japanese. And now that I've finished Heisig and am focusing on grammar and vocabulary, Heisig is really shining. I've described in detail elsewhere my building analogy (that Heisig is the framework for learning Japanese, best to be erected first) and I see every day how the grammar and vocabulary I learn slides into place in the already established framework of kanji. It's incredible and I see it in direct comparison to non-Heisig students. The others in my study group struggle every lesson with selections and questions because necessary vocabulary, which they don't know, impede their understanding. It's hard to practice a grammar rule if you don't know what it's referring to. With Heisig, I may not "know" the vocabulary either yet, but I can immediately infer meanings which frees me to focus on the topic at hand.

have a good level of japanese already

Absolutely not. Heisig can be done by anyone. That's the point.

plan to follow an intensive study course or self-study in a fairly intensive manner after having completed the book

Not intensive, but at least serious to reap the most benefit. However, anyone who completes Heisig, whether they go on for serious study or not, will find it greatly beneficial to any other study they do.

As for point 1:

That leads the hopeful beginner to think that he might, not being as good, be able to do it in two months! Which we all know is not going to happen.

Actually, I finished Heisig in 2 months. And I know of many others on this site who have done the same, or even in 1 month as Heisig did. I'd say I averaged 5 hours a day on Heisig (not including any weekends since I rarely completed any kanji on the weekends. So actually, taking that into account, I finished Heisig in even less time than 2 months if you only include days studied...). "That's more time than I have," many may argue. But here's the key: Heisig is so much fun that became my daily entertainment. The 2-3hours I day I usually spent surfing the net, and most others spend watching TV, was spent on Heisig instead. It was productive AND entertaining! Plus, I made effective use of all my otherwise wasted free time such as on the train, walking places, and even on the pot.

I think that it's fairly hard to evaluate the time required to complete RTK.

I agree. Everyone is different and has different responsibilities and priorities. But just as importantly, everyone also has different levels of motivation and skills at time management.

It will drain you mentally and you will need to push yourself a lot if you want to keep on track.

Quite the opposite for me. I felt invigorated studying Heisig. Yes, after especially ambitious days, my brain felt like mush. But how different is that from the athelete training in a sport he or she loves? The workout was draining, but after some rest, they're gungho about the next day.

Last edited by dingomick (2007 October 28, 8:20 am)

Dingomick wrote:

I don't think Heisig requires a huge amount of effort considering the return (more on that later).

I agree with that, but it doesn't mean it isn't a big investment in time and effort.

You won't learn any japanese during that time

This is the biggest flawed argument against Heisig. Kanji is Japanese (arguably the most difficult part of Japanese). Thus, doing Heisig is learning Japanese.

I don't want to get into a semantic argument, but I don't consider doing Heisig to be learning Japanese per se. It doesn't diminish the value of the method in any way, just that   Heisig is more of a base, or a structure as you call it to allow you to then learn Japanese. Now, I bet we could get into a pretty long discussion about this point, since Heisig does enable you to gain some measure understanding of Japanese text by guessing from keywords, so in a way, yes you are learning Japanese. My original point was just that a casual learner who would use the Heisig method would get very little benefit from the method until they had fully completed it and then learned some measure of Japanese grammar and vocabulary. Thus my statement that you will not be learning any Japanese during the time that you are doing the book. Only when you have completed it that your abilities will improve. Anyhow, it really depends on how you define learning Japanese and from a general perspective, you could say that you are learning Japanese, as that you are participating in the general process of learning Japanese. That is, you are not learning math, or doing laundry, but learning Japanese. But that was not my point. Let's not turn this into a semantic debate.

Now, for the time argument.  I know that some people, especially on this forum, have finished the book in two months. But I think that this is a small and unrepresentative sample. The fact that you consider learning kanji satisfying as your sole source of entertainment further confirms my view that you do not fit an average profile. . (btw that also applies to me to a certain extent)

I also read your depiction of RTK as a structure on which you build other knowledge and I agree on that.

The points which I wanted to make were basically that

1) RTK is harder to a lot of people than it has been for you and some others on this forum 2) It's not to be recommended for everybody 3) Heisig doesn't really tell you that, so I wanted to post this as a kind of warning to potential students so that they make sure that Heisig is really for them and that they know what they are getting into.

Last edited by Magnadoodle (2007 October 28, 5:28 pm)

Magnadoodle wrote:

Now, for the time argument.  I know that some people, especially on this forum, have finished the book in two months. But I think that this is a small and unrepresentative sample. The fact that you consider learning kanji satisfying as your sole source of entertainment further confirms my view that you do not fit an average profile. . (btw that also applies to me to a certain extent)

True. True.
People think I'm crazy when I ramble about kanji and Japanese like I do...
I give that 2-3 month estimate for dedicated people who are compatible with this method of learning. Of course, it won't go so fast for everyone, and it won't be the best method for everyone.

oh and what fab said about sharpening your memory skills is also true - i was dire at first at creating stories. Id always write out boring mnemonics and wonder why i wasnt remembering them. Then i started inventing stories involving the sopranos, pinnochio and such and my recall rate soared!

Magnadoodle wrote:

ファブリス wrote:

@MAgnadoodle : What does the time to complete RtK have to do with one's Japanese level ?

Nothing really. You can do Heisig as a beginner or as an advanced learner. It will take you the same time. The advanced learner will be able to make use of it faster though.

Unless of course the person has already learned several kanji. Not only will they already have some down, but I believe having seen many kanji and being able to write many already will make the whole road ahead easier.

Before I decided to do Heisig I was taking the kanji required by my Japanese classes and putting them into anki and quizzing by a keyword from my Kanji Learner's Dictionary. I also tried to do this beyond the class, taking any vocab I knew and making a point to memorize the kanji even if it wasn't required.

Decent exposure to kanji + practice memorizing them beforehand = easier time with RtK.

Thanks for the detailed reply Magnadoodle.

I don't want to get into a semantic argument, but I don't consider doing Heisig to be learning Japanese per se.

I don't think it's a semantic argument. Japanese, and all other glyph based language systems, are completely different than alphabet based ones. Learning even just the meanings of kanji is learning Japanese. Anyone who argues otherwise is doesn't understand the difference in language acquisition.

I think every learner, even "casual" learners, almost immediately begin reaping the benefits of Heisig in application, that is, they almost immediately begin understanding a lot more of the Japanese around them.I'm sure my experience is a common example.

Within the first few days (within the first 300 kanji, which happens to also be his free trial), kanji compounds I had never known or recognized before were blazing out all around me. I still clearly remember the "AHA!" moments of a few of these early compounds, 消臭 and 可燃物. They went literally like this: "Extinguish. Stinking. Whoa! Deodorant!! I can read that!"  "Can. (didn't know the kanji yet, but knew its parts)Fire/Kind of thing. Thing. Holy Cow! Burnable garbage!! I can read that!" These were words before that I may have associated by context (the first obviously on a deodorizer, and the second on a trashcan), but after Heisig I could understand them as words themselves and out of physical context even if I didn't know how to say them yet. I was reading Japanese!

This is an essential component of "learning Japanese", especially for those living in Japan. Passive understanding (reading and listening) are the most crucial skills for the beginning language student. I believe Heisig provides the most effective tool to propel the beginner, or any level learner, to heights of reading comprehension impossible otherwise except through many years of study. Heisig cracks the code. I may not be able to say a lot of the words I can now read, but it has made my life infinitely easier. For example, I no longer stare at the back of packaging with my dictionary out trying to figure out the contents. I can infer the meanings of the words with my understanding of the kanji within the compounds. And I can scan all text articles, advertisements, etc. and immediately infer the topic being discussed. Before Heisig, I was surrounded by an impenetrable world of squiggles.

The fact that you consider learning kanji satisfying as your sole source of entertainment further confirms my view that you do not fit an average profile. tongue

I don't consider learning kanji itself so entertaining. The Heisig method is what made it so enjoyable. I got to create entertaining stories all day and/or read entertaining stories other people had made here on RvTK. THAT is what was so entertaining.

1) RTK is harder to a lot of people than it has been for you and some others on this forum 2) It's not to be recommended for everybody 3) Heisig doesn't really tell you that, so I wanted to post this as a kind of warning to potential students so that they make sure that Heisig is really for them and that they know what they are getting into.

1. I agree.
2. I agree, though I believe it can work for anyone with adjustment or enhancement for individual learning styles. Also, mnemonic learning is a skill that requires practice. I believe many simply give up before they have made any effort to hone their mostly new found skill.
3. I disagree. As others have pointed out, his intro states it requires concentrated time and focus, especially if you want to finish quickly. And he repeatedly expounds upon the fact that his method is unfamiliar to most and requires practice.

Last edited by dingomick (2007 October 28, 7:37 pm)