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nadiatims wrote:
That's not necessarily related to creativity though. It's no different from how Japanese companies took market share away from the U.S and Europe as its economy developed. Korea too will eventually lose competitiveness as other 'cheap labor' countries develop their tech sectors (places like vietnam, mexico I imagine) and the international playing field levels out.
It is related to creativity of their management teams. All of their products are manufactured at basically the same prices. . .
The only big difference is that the Korean companies are staffed with management who received their education abroad. And no - just speaking English isn't the factor - but a fundamental change in outlook based on that experience put them way ahead of their Japanese counterparts IMO.
Last edited by kitakitsune (2011 December 07, 3:31 am)
According to wikipedia, Korea's nominal per capita GDP is half that of Japan (20,756 vs. 42,783). Japan has also been suffering from the rising yen.
You really think it makes a huge difference where the management teams are educated? Do you think a rational decision maker makes better decisions just because they went to harvard instead of Tokyo University?
I will make the case that the architectural field in Japan is quite creative. Of course, Japan is riddled with full-package construction companies that just clone the same houses for low prices (comparatively speaking) all across the country, and some architects work there as slave labor, with no creativity whatsoever, but anyone who has become familiar with the work of real architectural offices here in Japan is often surprised. There is a sensibility, versatility and ingenuity when dealing with small spaces that I have rarely seen in the West. Also, the law regulations regarding architecture in Japan are quite twisted and weird, so many houses here would be illegal anywhere outside Japan.
bebio wrote:
so many houses here would be illegal anywhere outside Japan.
I don't know what this has to do with creativity, but it sounds interesting. Can you give some examples?
bebio wrote:
I will make the case that the architectural field in Japan is quite creative.
Isn't Japanese architecture known for being earthquake resistant (as proven by the disaster earlier this year)? Where most countries' houses would fall like a deck of cards should an earthquake occur, Japanese houses would scarily sway side to side slowly, not actually collapse.
Of course, this aspect is focused on due to necessity (since earthquakes frequently occur in Japan) but if a non-Japanese person wanted advice on earthquake resistant housing, would he not ask for the advice of a Japanese engineer?
http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/mv/wbs/trend_tamago/
updated every day with new inventions ![]()
nadiatims wrote:
According to wikipedia, Korea's nominal per capita GDP is half that of Japan (20,756 vs. 42,783). Japan has also been suffering from the rising yen.
You really think it makes a huge difference where the management teams are educated? Do you think a rational decision maker makes better decisions just because they went to harvard instead of Tokyo University?
Nominal GDP per cap of the countries doesn't matter when both companies' factories are next to each other in Guangzhou. Neither does the rising yen, which is basically an already sick patient taking a turn for the worse. Korean companies have been taking over markets traditionally dominated by Japanese companies for a lot longer than the yen has been below 90.
And yes - I do believe that a manager educated at Harvard will in general make better management decisions in an international market than a Japanese person educated at the University of Tokyo and who has never left Japan.
Last edited by kitakitsune (2011 December 07, 5:47 pm)
kitakitsune wrote:
Nominal GDP per cap of the countries doesn't matter when both companies' factories are next to each other in Guangzhou.
It does when you consider that managers, designers, engineers, janitors etc in Korea get paid too. Plus there are all of the other operating costs such as electricity or getting the lawn mowed.
Besides, much is actually manufactured in-country depending on which industry you're talking about.
The cheaper cost of operating in Korea is one aspect, but of course it isn't the only one. Korean companies are a lot more intertwined with the government giving them certain financial and regulatory advantages, they tend to infringe copyright and patents much more (the current spat with Apple stands out, but there are entire ripoff motorcycles etc too - they weren't too different from China a few years ago).
Most importantly, Japanese companies got complacent at the top and stagnated, which happens to most large successful companies everywhere. Sure Sony products are more expensive and more attractive than LG, but they are also unreliable crap with poor software design. Toyota vehicles are more reliable and have better fit & finish than Hyundais, but they are also boring and conservatively designed. They are not used to competing because American companies haven't been much competition since the 1980s after their fall from grace due to complacency.
None of those points have anything to do with race or culture. Every large company is extremely multinational and management, engineering, design is carried out throughout the world.
Last edited by Jarvik7 (2011 December 08, 12:12 am)
qwertyytrewq wrote:
bebio wrote:
I will make the case that the architectural field in Japan is quite creative.
Isn't Japanese architecture known for being earthquake resistant (as proven by the disaster earlier this year)?
Not only that, Japan has it's own schools of (modern) Architecture and Civil Engineering.
Here's an interesting piece of news that shows that "lacking creativity" and achieving high scores on tests/exams is detrimental: http://news.yahoo.com/asians-college-st … 42977.html
Basically, overachieving Asians cannot gain entry into universities which they claim is because of racial discrimination. Asians claim that high scoring Asians are being compared with other high scoring Asians and only the best of the Asians can secure a spot. High scoring Asians claim that the proportion of Asians (as a percentage) should be higher because Asians can meet the academic requirements.
In order to solve that problem, Asians identify themselves as anything BUT Asian (eg. white) in the application process.
I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty creative.
Last edited by qwertyytrewq (2011 December 08, 7:47 am)
qwertyytrewq wrote:
Here's an interesting piece of news that shows that "lacking creativity" and achieving high scores on tests/exams is detrimental: http://news.yahoo.com/asians-college-st … 42977.html
Basically, overachieving Asians cannot gain entry into universities which they claim is because of racial discrimination. Asians claim that high scoring Asians are being compared with other high scoring Asians and only the best of the Asians can secure a spot. High scoring Asians claim that the proportion of Asians (as a percentage) should be higher because Asians can meet the academic requirements.
In order to solve that problem, Asians identify themselves as anything BUT Asian (eg. white) in the application process.
I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty creative.
Well, that's more about the bizarre American idea of what "diversity" means (80% white, other races in equal proportions?). You can kinda see how such a system would reinforce the idea that asians are actually smarter, not just harder working, if all the asians you meet at uni have been far more strictly selected. Those that got in probably *are* smarter.
Universities here have heaps of asians. I competed with them and was friends with them. The asians weren't any smarter, they just actually studied.
Also, you're not seriously suggesting that standardised tests test creativity are you? Skills that can be taught by rote are far easier to test than creative skills (and by creative skills i don't mean finger painting). It's downright trivial to test whether someone knows their multiplication tables, harder to give problems that truly test their problem solving skills.
Most worded math problems on exams (at least ones i've seen) are in such a set format that people teach methods of converting to the equivalent math. Often it is blatantly obvious which mathematical method you are supposed to use to solve it (often because you just learned that method). These don't test creative problem solving at all. Part of creatively solving problems is asking the right question: going from a vague problem to something you can do maths on. Most exams utterly fail to test this skill.
Subjects like mathematics are fairly black and white (at least until you get into comparing proofs for elegance etc) but subjects like computer science and engineering (still highly technical, maths-based subjects) are very grey. The concept of "the right answer" fades and is replaced with "did you solve the problem?" and "How well did you solve the problem?". I've met many engineers who can do the low-level problem solving once you point them in the right direction, but are sorely lacking skill in getting to that stage to begin with. And I'm not singling out asians in this either.
Wow that is so stupid. Why is race even a checkbox on the application forms? Having acceptance quotas based on race is so completely counter to what it is trying to achieve.
qwertyytrewq wrote:
prink wrote:
I don't think this idea applies to Japanese, or Asians in general. It's the Chinese that supposedly "lack creativity." Google "China lack of creativity," and you should see why.
Also, one of my professors is Chinese, and she said that Chinese students are not taught to think for themselves. They're taught to memorize and replicate. The reason she explained this was to explain plagiarism, and this was probably partly directed toward a couple of the Chinese exchange students in the class.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 … 93100.html
EDIT:
One more thing, creativity isn't limited to art or entertainment. It can be innovation in pretty much any field of work or recreational hobby.If the claim that "Asians have creativity" had any basis whatsoever, then I would agree that it would most befit China first and foremost than other Asian countries.
Another reason is that for various reasons, China' government is a lot more controlling (compared to liberal Western countries) so you see things like state censorship and self-enforced censorship (due to fear of the state). This can be seen by the banning of certain video games, movies, or in journalism.
In order for society to maximise their creativity, then need freedom to access information. Censorship negates that.
Now that I've looked at this thread more closely, I realize that a lot of people are referring to race. To clarify, I wasn't saying anything in regards to ethnicity or race and intelligence. I should have made that clear. I was only referring to Chinese nationals, which can also include white people raised in China. I agree with what you said, but I don't think the problem is limited to censorship. They're literally taught not to think for themselves and are trained to reproduce others' ideas. Like you said, it's a regime problem and has nothing to do with whether the Chinese race is more intelligent or creative than Westerners.
Since people are focusing on race, I'll point out that there is scientific evidence that East Asians are smarter than Westerners. This, however, doesn't deal much with creativity, and I think most people will deny this on premise alone. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … gence.html
Last edited by prink (2011 December 08, 7:54 pm)
nadiatims wrote:
Wow that is so stupid. Why is race even a checkbox on the application forms? Having acceptance quotas based on race is so completely counter to what it is trying to achieve.
I don't support race quotas, but I'm not against them either. If I had to guess, I'd say they exist because racism exists. Let me give you an example. If I was in charge of whatever decision making process, I might decide that I'm only going to choose good-looking Asian women over any other race/gender. Is that fair? No. Will all people do that? No. Will some? Yes. Would I? Maybe... Regardless, people have biases. Race quotas are one of the many attempts at creating equality. If a certain race is scoring low on a certain exam, it indicates that race is less equal and perhaps more discriminated against. That is, that race needs better education. How do you get that race better education? You give them government grants to go to school.
Last edited by prink (2011 December 08, 8:07 pm)
First of all, I'd say the universities should be allowed to select students anyway they see fit. If they want to be racist then that's their choice and their business will suffer. If they consider performance in standardised tests the most important measure of academic strength and they want academically strong students then they should accept them irrespective of race. If other measures are also valued then they should be taken into account in the selection process. About the only reason I could see for racial quotas is if some university thinks a certain ethnic mix is optimal for their image (business) or somehow improves the quality of their graduates/research (again for business reasons).
The groups that academically under perform for myriad socio-economic reasons are not going to actually be helped long-term by these kind of quotas. They don't actually improve the quality of education in disadvantaged communities at all. They just lower the standard of students from that group represented in any given university which isn't going to do anything to eliminate any existing stereotypes. Not to mention people will just game the system anyway. So you'd get well-off kids who can claim belonging to disadvantaged groups being the primary beneficiaries of this system. You'd be better off having quotas based on post-code.
Last edited by nadiatims (2011 December 08, 11:21 pm)
Sweet jesus. ![]()
Stereotype much ????? xD
Jarvik7 wrote:
The cheaper cost of operating in Korea is one aspect, but of course it isn't the only one. Korean companies are a lot more intertwined with the government giving them certain financial and regulatory advantages, they tend to infringe copyright and patents much more (the current spat with Apple stands out, but there are entire ripoff motorcycles etc too - they weren't too different from China a few years ago).
I forgot to reply to this post.
A bit of background: Has anyone noticed the seemingly sudden explosion of Kpop (Korean pop music) worldwide? Jpop has been somewhat mainstream (in certain circles) for a long time but there is a sudden Kpop boom out of nowhere. The 9 girl group SNSD (Girl's Generation) is the forefront of this so called "Korean Wave". This is surprising to me because Kpop is virtually indistinguishable from Jpop, apart from the language. Grab a couple of nice young ladies, auto-tune style vocals and a crappy beat, and voila, pop music, Asian or not.
What comes into it is your point of Korean companies apparently being closely intertwined with the Korean government. What other country has close state/private company relationships and wants to promote itself to the world? China. What did Korea do that China didn't to achieve cultural exports of this magnitude?
Due to the Korean government pushing of Korean music onto the world instead of consumers naturally voting for it with their dollars, some people have called this Korean Wave a "Zombie Wave".
http://blog.livedoor.jp/tonchamon/archi … 02526.html
this is pretty creative imo
http://sperm.jp/
qwertyytrewq wrote:
This is surprising to me because Kpop is virtually indistinguishable from Jpop, apart from the language.
No it isn't.
qwertyytrewq wrote:
Due to the Korean government pushing of Korean music onto the world instead of consumers naturally voting for it with their dollars, some people have called this Korean Wave a "Zombie Wave".
But people are buying it... if a government advertises its tourism industry does that make it a zombie industry?
These easily-threatened Japanese nationalists are annoying.
SomeCallMeChris wrote:
Creative learning is, "Here's some examples of addition. Here's some examples of multiplication. Let's explore how they might be related. Who has some ideas? Please make a poem or collage about multiplication and bring it to class."
(...)
But, of course, it's -very- difficult to teach History in any way -other- than rote learning, or at least difficult to test the results.
That's not "creative learning", that's "lazy teaching". Creative should be more like: "Here's some examples of multiplication and addition. Let's explore how they are related. Who has some ideas? Who can come up with an algorithm to sum or multiply any two numbers?"
People seem to thing creativity is all about poems or collages, when in fact it's about coming up with new ideas, and integrating old ideas in new ways.
As for history, analyzing the reasons for historical events, coming up with explanations and possible alternative results not only fosters creativity and critical thinking, but really cements the facts in your memory.
qwertyytrewq wrote:
, some people have called this Korean Wave a "Zombie Wave".
http://blog.livedoor.jp/tonchamon/archi … 02526.html
Actually it's not "some people", it's one guy. And the article is totally misleading, this gives a much more varied description of the views he has expressed http://londonkoreanlinks.net/2009/02/08 … never-was/
Edit: Nadiatims: I don't think that racial quotas should be used in a way that sets an upper limit on how many citizens of a racial minority may be accepted, but I think that there sometimes are good reasons for setting a lower limit. For one thing, many racial minorities are treated less than ideally by their teachers when they are in school and so that makes their scores suffer (ie their potential may be greater than their scores would make you think). Something else you have to consider is that among some racial minorities, youngsters don't really have any academical role models or think that they will be so discrimininated and not let into the academical world that it's not worth trying to study hard anyway., lowering their motivation.
So, even if you had a hypothetical situation where in the current generation of 20-year-olds, students of a racial minority do less well than students from the racial majority in all respects, accepting more of them might be beneficial in the long run as they may be able to set a good example. Moreover, giving them advice on how to study effectively etc. and other skills could help too, because it might be a matter of them simply never having learned these kinds of things that are taken for granted among the racial majority, because they haven't learned them from their parents, who never received a higher education. If you want to get a group of people into an academical world, you have to start somewhere. Granted, overdoing these kinds of measures would make the racial minority feel like they're treated as mindless idiots and also make both the racial majority and the minority to feel like the system is unjust and it's really hard to not turn anti-discrimation procedures into the same or another kind of discrimination.
Entirely dismissing the idea is being a bit extreme though, I think.
Last edited by Surreal (2011 December 09, 4:00 pm)
Ah yes, the classic Affirmative Action debate - never gets old. :-)
dbh2ppa wrote:
That's not "creative learning", that's "lazy teaching".
No, that's 'lazy writing of examples of teaching styles'
I was just trying to answer the question 'what kind of learning is there other than rote learning?' with examples that should remind people of teaching styles they've seen. Your example is certainly a better example of how to use that style of teaching in a math class if you actually wanted to do so.
The problem with actually doing so is that in the math and sciences it's generally the same as leading people down the path to independent rediscovery. This is great... for the person doing the rediscovering, if anyone does so. It's not so great for the other 39 people in the classroom, (and there's always the chance nobody is actually thinking through the problem - the one who comes up with the answer may have already learned it outside of class.)
Likewise the problem with more exploratory approaches to history is that ultimately you have to give people a grade that is going to be understood to represent how much they know about what actually happened in history - even if you grade on another scale, standardized testing comes around and cares only about choosing the right fact. If students get great grades and then fail the standardized test, hard questions get asked about what those students actually learned.
Anyway, there are settings where those teaching styles can and do work for those subjects, just not in public secondary schools (at least American ones). Unfortunate, but I don't think any teacher is talented enough to make those teaching styles work with 40 people in the room and at least half of them disinterested in the subject. Not to mention that the end of the day, a certain amount of facts do have to be memorized to face the standardized tests.
JimmySeal wrote:
bebio wrote:
so many houses here would be illegal anywhere outside Japan.
I don't know what this has to do with creativity, but it sounds interesting. Can you give some examples?
After 2 months, I had completely forgotten about this thread. sorry.
I will answer also other's people's questions.
Japanese construction is for the most part quite earthquake-resistant (as long as they were built after 1982, which is when a new building code was implemented, being much more technically demanding than in the past (in the early 90's, the code was somewhat further improved). In the Kobe earthquake, most of the buildings built before 1982 collapsed. As for buildings made between 1982 and early 90's, about half of them suffered some damage, but none collapsed.
After the Kobe earthquake, the code was significantly improved. Yes, there is still a significant number of houses made before 1982 all over Japan which are really vulnerable. Some of them are being retrofitted, but there's still a long way to go. Nevertheless, in Tokyo there are many safe areas with well-built houses.
Now, back to the illegal stuff. It has to do with land property law.
For a full rundown, read Andre Sorensen, The Making of Urban Japan. It synthesizes some of the things I have heard from Japanese architecture professors here in Japan.
As a summary, since the Edo period it has fully asserted that the Bakufu rule over the people was not absolute, and even went through very fragile periods. During all this time, the urban space became insanely fragmented and unregulated (by private land lots), even as Tokyo was scorched by fire time and again. For several reasons, the bakufu regime failed in enforcing any serious rules towards reordering the city (it had no effective power to readjust private lands so as to improve roads, or install sewer infrastructure). By the time the Meiji period had ended, the private lot space was so fragmented, and the access roads to people's houses were so narrow that in a case of fire no one could do anything to help. The paradox is that the population also never became strong enough and sufficiently organized to voice their opinion (people's movements were squashed by the bakufu, and most people don't have any cultural memory of what it means to participate in a democratic process, and how to conduct protests).
Finally, the main construction laws and codes (different from building code!) have remained unchanged for several decades, due to political inertia: time and again, as soon as anyone tries to change a line of it, some damaged party finds a way to block the entire process.
Due to short space, these laws mandate a minimum of 50cm space between houses (in some cases 1m), and windows can be placed in walls of buildings facing each other, even if there is only 50cm between them. Also, even when the law tried to force roads to have a minimum of 4m width, it failed to be implemented, due to the resistance of several interest groups, as well as private land owners. Land plot size is so small and expensive, that Japanese houses have to be built on a very tight leash, with thin walls (downside: no acoustic insulation, you can hear everything your neighbors do or say, and poor thermal insulation, which has to be compensated by overusing the air conditioner) and poor living conditions. This means that for these houses and poorly located rooms, there is no sun exposure, there is poor air circulation, mold growth, accumulation of garbage or dirt, difficulty in installing infrastructure such as sewers, impossibility for fire trucks and ambulances to access most houses, urban chaos (post offices had a hard time navigating through the addresses to find a particular house, it is no small feat that they do it successfully by now, with the help of computer systems to catalog everything)...
living in Tokyo in the 60's and 70's was HELL. diseases abounded due to pollution caused by corrupt industries (as the legislation allowed them to stand close to housing areas) and poor air ventilation caused by awkward streets, and serious lack of sanitary infrastructure. Many people died, and it was the beginning of of the first protest movements. The companies spent years incriminating the victims, saying it was all their fault for becoming sick. it took decades until the courts sided with the victims, and the industries began to clean up their facilities.
The Tokyo olympics in the 60's and later, in the late 80's and 90's saw the first successful attempts to improve urban standards. In the late 90's, the notion of machizukuri was established, where neighboring communities create groups that work together with town halls and construction companies towards improving roads and houses, and creating a better urban design. there were many failures with machizukuri, but after these stumbles the movement seems to be maturing, and producing good results. you can find websites for machizukuri groups in Shibuya, kita-ku, setagaya-ku, etc.
For a summary of Shibuya's evolution, I wrote a small report for one of my lectures:
http://www.archive.org/stream/ReportsAb … 0/mode/2up
I have other reports, but they are kinda crappy (done in a short time just to get credits).
Last edited by bebio (2012 February 10, 4:43 am)

