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Ever since I finished RTK 1 and 2, I found myself gradually moving towards maintaining my kanji knowledge by reading texts, and using 'real-world' stimuli, and moving away from using Fabrice's website. One of the reasons for this I had realized, was that as one's ability with kanji grows, and the more he or she wishes to use this knowledge in actual kanji-using societies, the more they will need to move away from learning the characters as individual units and focus on learning to view them more exclusively as morpho-syllographs functioning within a language. This is not a poorly known fact, and I believe many of us here on these forums have already begun moving on to this next step.
However, another reality of the kanji which many of us also come to realize is that while the Joyo Kanji (and those beyond in RTK 3) are all indeed valid and active parts of the language, and a working knowledge of all of these is recommended for those who wish to function at the level of the well-educated, a large portion of these are not often used in materials one will read, and almost never used in speech. As second language learners, we are more prone to lexical loss as a result of disuse than native speakers. I have been considering this problem for some time, and I have watched my 'expired' pile grow taller and taller. I found that when I did attempt to clear my piles, more often than not I could read the character in Japanese, but could no longer remember the exact keyword, because I had developed a sense for the subjectivity of many Japanese words which the target kanji being reviewed were related to. An example of this would be the use of 風 (ふう、かぜ) in the unrelated words 風速 (ふうそく- wind speed) and 風格 (ふうかく- personality, character). What I believe this illustrates is that at a certain point in one's Japanese education, this subjectivity begins to become more apparent, and the keywords become less valuable.
I believe Dr. Heisig mentioned in RTK 1 that his method as far as the keywords were concerned, was meant to be a tool, a stepping stone to help students more easily overcome a prohibitive learning curve. This tool could be used as long as one needed it, but the knowledge developed was designed to be long-term (with maintenance) and would be available to help the learner at any time which he or she needed to fall back on it.
What I decided was the best way for someone in my situation to maintain this knowledge and stay sharp with characters that do not see everyday use, was to utilize the power of priming. This would entail just allowing myself to see and briefly mull over more characters more frequently. However, with the current tools available on the kanji.koohii.com review page, I cannot simply view characters sans their information without either moving many characters back to the failed pile, and having to tediously bring them back, or ruin the efficacy of the Leitner system by simply hitting "Yes" on every card to view many character test cards quickly. A simple "Skip" button, which would allow me to just move on to another card without it moving to another Leitner box would make for much easier, and more effective, focused general reviewing.
As always, I appreciate all of the wonderful work Fabrice has done for kanji learners, and I earnestly hope that he will take this suggestion for addition up for consideration. I believe it will make an already excellent page invaluable.
Apologies for the long post, thanks for reading.
Weber,
Dartmouth College '09
Hanover, NH
Last edited by Weber (2007 October 30, 12:45 am)
Doesn't ANYONE have even one comment on this?? Tough crowd...
This really would be a great improvement to the review tools on the site...
It is impossible to make everyone happy, so Fabrice's best bet might be to focus on the core set of users if he is to have any chance at keeping the interface straightforward and useful (which is really important).
This is sometimes called the 90% case. More than 90% of users will probably not need to skip a card.
This is a common problem in the software field. Programs get more and more and more features until they become unusable. There's an article about this at Coding Horror, Why Does Software Spoil?.
I personally feel the process should go in the other direction. Like good writing, the best software isn't done until it has been cut and cut and refined until only the most effective and elegant parts remain.
But to argue the other side, this could easily be added as a hidden feature bound to the 'S' key. No biggie.
-- Daniel
Weber, I think other programs (Anki, say) could offer what you're talking about. I'm not entirely sure, though, because your post is oblique & dense enough that it doesn't leave a lot of room for comment.
And I second Daniel's comments on software design. Fabrice's brilliance is the site's elegant functionality. It enables us to learn keywords for 3007 kanji with a Leitner system. That's all it does, but it does so perfectly, which I think is important for so complex a task.
Hya Weber,
I browse the forums regularly but I don't see everything all the time, I don't remember seeing your topic before.
Regarding priming, could you expand a bit on that?
The question is is there value in this approach for the users to which RevTK is targetted?
Heisig did say the keywords are a temporary aid and that is a good question actually... how long should you review afterwards with the keywords? If you feel it's time for you to drop them, I would suggest using a program like Anki where you would put in only those characters you need to review. Practically, I'm not sure how you can evolve away from the english keywords while still reviewing characters on their own. I still review with the keywords I think ~2 years after finishing RtK and it doesn't bother me although for characters I haven't reviewed in a long time, I sometimes understand the keyword differently (I had bouts of "spring" thinking it meant jump where as it was the water "spring"), when that happens I know I could write both characters, but I got to see one I didn't write down while checking my answer which is annoying.
ファブリス wrote:
Practically, I'm not sure how you can evolve away from the english keywords while still reviewing characters on their own.
What I'm doing is just using a Japanese word instead of an English one. eg. おおきい → 大きい、 ちいさい → 小さい、 いく → 行く、 うらやましい → 羨ましい etc. I find it makes a big difference. Also, I don't discard the imagery from my story, I try to remember it but associate it to a Japanese word instead.
wrightak wrote:
What I'm doing is just using a Japanese word instead of an English one. eg. おおきい → 大きい、 ちいさい → 小さい、 いく → 行く、 うらやましい → 羨ましい etc. I find it makes a big difference. Also, I don't discard the imagery from my story, I try to remember it but associate it to a Japanese word instead.
For some reason I never thought about doing that. Do you think it would be valuable to start switching my keywords? It seems like this would be a good way to be practicing vocabulary at the same time.
Also, I tend to not recognize words when they are written only in hiragana so I think this would be a great way to get more comfortable with them.
Last edited by fingerscrossed (2007 November 06, 10:09 am)
Has anybody come up with a list of Japanese keywords?
Laura wrote:
Has anybody come up with a list of Japanese keywords?
I've been working on it for a long time and I'm getting there. I also have lists from two other members of the forum. If there's demand, I can post the lists.
fingerscrossed wrote:
For some reason I never thought about doing that. Do you think it would be valuable to start switching my keywords?
Personally, I think Heisig's method would be a lot better if you started with Japanese keywords and never had English ones at all. I've gone into this at length in other threads, which I can point you towards if you'd like.
Laura wrote:
Has anybody come up with a list of Japanese keywords?
wrightak wrote:
I've been working on it for a long time and I'm getting there. I also have lists from two other members of the forum. If there's demand, I can post the lists.
I, for one, would love to see a list/lists of Japanese keywords. It would be great if you would post the lists or if you would be willing to PM them.
Thanks.
Hello Fabrice,
What I meant by utilizing the power of priming in skipping cards was that now that I have been through RTK I and II, and after living in Japan for a year, I felt that my primary task in terms of continuing my studies was "naturalizing" my knowledge of the characters and the vocabulary, grammar and usage associated with them. I mean that I felt my task was to begin the process of adapting the somewhat unusual form of the Japanese knowledge one gains from RTK to be closer to how the Japanese themselves perceived their language, which I believe is the natural progression. In beginning to think this way, I, very much like Wrightak, began "replacing" the RTK keywords with their real Japanese equivalents. Not on purpose, this just seemed to be what was happening. However, many kanji are not used frequently, and separating those which are from these is difficult the way the site is now, without lots of work. Especially since I often remmeber a lot of my older, more disused stories after a few minutes to an hour, the ability to just mull over a lot of kanji outside of Leitner with a skip button would be useful. Just to make sure I see a lot more kanji, more often, to prevent "mental burial" which causes the discouragingly tall failed piles from forming. I believe the keywords always keep their value as a kind of "helper" foundation, but I think they shouldn't be relied upon when trying to develop upper-level literacy. I think they are great, however, for maintaining knowledge of lesser-used characters and "flourish" characters, like some of the very old and disused characters I and many others here love to learn out of pure interest.
Anki may do this for me too, but I just thought I'd suggest the idea to you anyway, and see what people think, as I hadn't seen this concern mentioned before.
PS: I think Wrightak's Japanese keyword list is an incredible idea, I also hope that his and the others will be shared here.
Last edited by Weber (2007 November 06, 5:38 pm)
Also, is it possible to add your own hotkeys, so I could just make my own Skip key, and not bother Fabrice to do anything?
How do other people here deal with large shaky expired stacks?

