The next level (upcoming update)

Index » Feedback

 
synewave Member
From: Susono, Japan Registered: 2006-06-23 Posts: 864 Website

フアブリス wrote:

As for news, I was in a bit of a slump, didn't feel like doing any Japanese for a while, it lasted about a month. But I've been thinking of trying to put online whatever I have now for the new sentence & vocab review area. It's only halfway through where I want it, but it works well enough for reviewing sentences and vocab anyway. So I'll try to put online what I have in the coming weeks, hopefully that'll help me get back in the rhythm of things.

Looking forward to seeing what you've come up with. Not sure what this new update has in store for us but I imagine it is more than simply an online SRS.

As for the slump...I'm feeling it. Perhaps your hard work will get me going again!

Megaqwerty Member
Registered: 2007-04-05 Posts: 318

Topic title is cute: yes, Fabrice, we are ready to take Reviewing the Kanji to the next level!

synewave wrote:

Not sure what this new update has in store for us but I imagine it is more than simply an online SRS.

Yeah, Anki pretty much has that corner of the market conquered.

nwatkins Member
From: usa Registered: 2007-08-26 Posts: 45

collaborative creation of sentences (flashcard style), w/ ratings, and ability to selectively include sentences into ones own review area??? heh, just a thought

Advertising (register and sign in to hide this)
JapanesePod101 Sponsor
 
Nukemarine Member
From: 神奈川 Registered: 2007-07-15 Posts: 2347

nwatkins wrote:

collaborative creation of sentences (flashcard style), w/ ratings, and ability to selectively include sentences into ones own review area??? heh, just a thought

I had similar thoughts. Seeing that the layout here is pretty darn good, modifying it for sentences seems easy enough. Perhaps 5000 to 10000 cards labeled 1 to 10000 that you add as you go along. Should just have three blocks to worry about: Sentence block, kana block (for pronunciation) and answer block (either translation, explanation, or nothing).

Considering the biggest question for those trying AJATT has been "where do I get the sentences" this would be a god send. Let's face it, I prefer using the stories of others when it came to kanji. The same goes for sentences.

Megaqwerty wrote:

synewave wrote:

Not sure what this new update has in store for us but I imagine it is more than simply an online SRS.

Yeah, Anki pretty much has that corner of the market conquered.

Not really. Anki's online portion and phone use is very bare bones. Resolve has said he prefers to concentrate on the program itself, which I gotta agree with since it's better to have one thing that's outstanding than 3 things that are mediocre.

Last edited by Nukemarine (2007 October 17, 8:32 pm)

dilandau23 Member
From: Japan Registered: 2006-09-13 Posts: 330

Nukemarine wrote:

Not really. Anki's online portion and phone use is very bare bones. Resolve has said he prefers to concentrate on the program itself, which I gotta agree with since it's better to have one thing that's outstanding than 3 things that are mediocre.

I think model design and the online portion are what sets Anki above the rest.  I would not call the online portion bare bones at all and the phone support has given meaning to my train commutes.  With the tags noweb and nophone the three together work wonderfully. (I do wish I could still add simple cards from the phone)  I think Resolve already has designed 3 outstanding things and the future can only get better.  It will be interesting to see what Fabrice does have in store for us.  Whatever it is, I am sure the focus will be on the community.

Last edited by dilandau23 (2007 October 17, 9:14 pm)

Jarvik7 Member
From: 名古屋 Registered: 2007-03-05 Posts: 3946

I don't really agree with the AJATT idea of memorizing sentences. (waste of time, little return on investment, people don't speak using preconstructed sentences, etc) I prefer a more traditional approach of learning vocabulary and grammar, and trying to implement them in daily conversation. I realize that not everyone has the luxury of daily Japanese conversation, but hey there is always Skype.

I am looking forward to see what you have for memorizing words though, hopefully it ties into the kanji section of the site. Maybe have the ability to automatically add all compounds composed of kanji that you already "know"? Maybe people can share lists of words (JLPT vocab, kanken jukugo, etc)? Hopefully if there are links to Japanese dictionaries, it'll be to something other than EDICT.

I've been wanting to use the unlinked onyomi section of the site, but kind of afraid to since who knows how long it'll remain. I think that as it is would be helpful to users if only more people knew about it and started adding content.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2007 October 18, 12:37 am)

johnzep Member
From: moriya, ibaraki Registered: 2006-05-14 Posts: 373

I don't think the point is to memorize sentences....just to expose yourself to a lot of sentences and understand them and get a feel for them.

Jarvik7 Member
From: 名古屋 Registered: 2007-03-05 Posts: 3946

johnzep wrote:

I don't think the point is to memorize sentences....just to expose yourself to a lot of sentences and understand them and get a feel for them.

That can be done by reading, without entering and studying them by SRS. imo all kinds of things can go wrong with that approach. Some people remember similar words by constructing a sentence with alliteration, but I don't see the benefit of entering sentences you encounter in normal reading.

That said, this isn't really the thread for discussing the merits of AJATT. Keep up the good work Fabrice! smile

Nukemarine Member
From: 神奈川 Registered: 2007-07-15 Posts: 2347

Jarvik, you do not enter the sentences to memorize them. You enter them for reading only, not even studying. I think the idea is this: you slowly build upto 10000 sentences, so you're getting the equivalent of reading numerous novels in the foreign language correctly, as you know immediately if you read the sentence wrong both in pronunciation and in meaning.

Plus, though entering in the sentences in an SRS is the main part, you are still told you should get other inputs via other media such as tv, dvd's, music and reading. With an SRS, you reinforce your knowledge of On, Kun, Structure and Content of speaking and writing. However, without input from other sources, you handicap yourself. Imagine that, upto 50 sentences a day ranging from recent to stuff you put in over a year ago. It's like you're channel surfing. And if you're getting full reading (pronunciation, understanding of the parts and the whole) for that day, you could have read the equivalent of a page of Japanese. With each sentence in the SRS, you also can teach yourself automatically if you were wrong.

Still your call. We each will learn our own way, but having some manner provided for us should not be dissed.

Reply #10 - 2007 October 18, 6:58 am
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

There are plenty of SRS already out there. The community sharing of resources like sentences will be important, but there is much more to be done. For starters, entering sentences and copy pasting definitions from dictionaries and such takes too much time, and can be stream-lined. Other things are obvious, for example it's easy to show what kanji is "failed" for a user, in the sentences and/or vocab, if the user has been reviewing on this site.

10000 sentences is a bit over-the-top, imho. I'm seeing already some real benefits after just 150 sentences. I'd bet that after 1000 most ppl could start reading at a bearable pace.

My goal will be to help people get to that point where you can read comfortably. That said, it doesn't matter how many sentences people want to use. Implementation wise for me, the trick is to find how to optimize all this so that shared resources can save up space in the database. This will be much more space hungry than the RtK review section.

Jarvik wrote:

Maybe have the ability to automatically add all compounds composed of kanji that you already "know"?

Yeah that was planned, that would rock wouldn't it! I can do that with the database I have now.

Reply #11 - 2007 October 18, 9:25 am
wrightak Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2006-04-07 Posts: 873 Website

I still have very little idea of what this new update will be. All I can glean from your posts is that it has something to do with sentences and sharing resources. Would you like to set forth some of your ideas for discussion or would you prefer to implement what you've done so far and see what reactions you get? I'd love to discuss but I'm also happy to sit back and wait if that's what you'd prefer.

Reply #12 - 2007 October 18, 9:33 am
alantin Member
From: Finland Registered: 2007-05-02 Posts: 346

ファブリス!
"That would rock" wouldn't even begin to describe it!! That would be just unbelievably fantastic! big_smile

I've got to tell you; I'm getting pretty excited about this new update!

Last edited by alantin (2007 October 18, 9:37 am)

Reply #13 - 2007 October 18, 2:10 pm
nwatkins Member
From: usa Registered: 2007-08-26 Posts: 45

I think that the updates discussed, associated with sentences, pose a fundamental problem of verifiability. How is the initial database populated and maintained? There must clearly be a source of moderation. This is a learning site, with a clear implication that a typical user *doesn't know*, and as with any learning source, a degree of trust required.

Does that raise any questions or comments?

Reply #14 - 2007 October 22, 1:13 pm
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

Jarvik7 wrote:

Hopefully if there are links to Japanese dictionaries, it'll be to something other than EDICT.

I am using EDICT, though external links are possible, I need to work with the data from the dictionary. To my knowledge EDICT is the only Japanese dictionary available that you can feed into a database.

Is there something in particular you don't like with EDICT? I would be interested to know.

For the purposes of sentence reviews, I think EDICT will do the job nicely. You lookup any words from the sentence, they get "tied" to the sentence, and help you understand the meaning of the sentence. Hence, you enter the original Japanese sentence, lookup the words, and you're done. If the sentence is complex, you could add some explanation in the description (answer) field, but it is not necessary most of the time. Additionally, the dictionary provides the exact readings, so there is no need to enter the readings either.

I think where EDICT doesn't provide enough details or not a very accurate meaning, it won't stop the user from getting a correct understanding of the sentence as a whole. By that I mean, EDICT can provide multiple meanings, and often does, for many of the frequent Japanese words. But since we get the word from a sentence, which meaning applies should be straightforward. Those cases where there is still doubt, I expect most serious learners to have a dictionary at hand. My goal is to make the process of entering sentences as easy as possible, considering that it's painfully slow already to read or collect the sentences in the first place.

Another interesting avenue, is a lookup on Heisig's primitives. As a beginner myself, I find that looking up words for which you don't know the reading yet; and where it is not given, is a major slowdown. I've got a basic search working with Heisig's primitives which I want to integrate in the sentence editor as well, but later.

nwatkins wrote:

How is the initial database populated and maintained?

It is meant to be populated by users. This section will very likely require more administration than the site currently does, we will see. People can add sentences coming from anywhere, it could be from a Japanese novel, or it could be some lyrics from an anime, or a Japanese DVD subtitle, videogame text... whatever the user fancies.

How can we guarantee the quality of the sentences? Basically there's two approaches : the user trusts what is shared, or trusts some other users who have prepared "sentence packs". If the creator indicates clearly the source (a field is provided for that purpose alone), then you can more or less trust that the material is correct, unless there were some typo.

If the creator does not take time to indicate the source, but still shares the sentences (this will be intentionally shared, as in the kanji stories), then you might not want to use the sentences, not knowing where they come from.

This is a learning site, with a clear implication that a typical user *doesn't know*, and as with any learning source, a degree of trust required.

Of course you can enter every sentence yourself. Given that this system lets you learn sentences from the very material that you enjoy, most people will want to enter their own sentences from their own sources.

Sharing is not the primary feature. Sharing adds value and more possibilities, but the primary use for the sentence review is to enter your own sentences from your own material.

Reply #15 - 2007 October 22, 2:03 pm
thegeezer3 Member
From: manchester - uk Registered: 2005-11-05 Posts: 122

what id love is a vocabulary pack for some of the films i watch. Seeing as the subtitles arent often accurate to whats being said and that its hard to find online scripts it would be great if people could post the vocab they learnt from one film so others can learn it advance before viewing.

just been going through the bourne identity and for some reason i cant follow the bad guys (head of the treadstone project guy from american beauty) stuff. I end up constantly repeating it untill i finally get it. perhaps there some use in that but sometimes it results in me spending more time studying rather enjoying japanese (which id like to do more often). having a vocab database on films would help a lot.

my 2 pennies.

Reply #16 - 2007 October 22, 3:26 pm
jondesousa Member
From: USA Registered: 2006-06-13 Posts: 134

Fabrice-san,

Would it be possible for students to download some sentences for review on external sources like twinkle (on palm)? 

I generally don't have much opportunity to get online each day and carrying sentences with me allows me to work on the go.  When I am in line at a store, waiting for fellow workers to get to a meeting, etc.

I still use the site all of the time for the forums as I try to check it once a day or so, but for review, mobile is quite a bit easier for me.

Thanks,

Jon

Reply #17 - 2007 October 22, 5:24 pm
Jarvik7 Member
From: 名古屋 Registered: 2007-03-05 Posts: 3946

Fabrice: Mostly I dislike the inaccurate or misleading definitions, as well as total lack of example usage and contextual information. 1:1 definitions are horrible in cross language dictionaries, especially for languages from cultures as different as English & Japanese. There are also many many obsolete or otherwise unused words contained in EDICT, yet these will often come up first in a search with nothing to signify which is commonly used. The presence of long phrases as if they were words is also kind of annoying, but that's just me. If used to generate a vocab study list based on learned kanji, there will be a lot of "junk" cards which waste your time. I don't think there is an alternative in that case though.

I will admit to using EDICT sometimes when using my computer, but that's just because I don't want to shell out for one of the better dictionaries that jEDICT supports when I already own a high end denshijisho.

While I don't think there are any other free Japanese dictionaries that can be embedded into the database, you might be able to parse (or link to) the output from a free to use online dictionary such as dic.yahoo.co.jp or www.sanseido.net. There are also all the various links when you look up a word on WWWJDIC.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2007 October 22, 5:29 pm)

Reply #18 - 2007 October 22, 6:51 pm
meolox Member
Registered: 2007-08-31 Posts: 386

I have to say I'm more than excited for this coming update, caught up in my excitement I've sent a donation your way ファブリス.

The idea of having compounds "generated" from kanji already known is surely a great one, I like the idea of Vocabulary Packs and if it's implemented I already have a few excel sheets with vocab from Japanese songs I've translated I could share, the question is are you worried about copyright violation if people do not state where they sourced sentences from?

Reply #19 - 2007 October 22, 7:14 pm
skylarth Member
From: USA Registered: 2007-08-08 Posts: 49

meolox wrote:

are you worried about copyright violation if people do not state where they sourced sentences from?

Thats a good one, as I have a good number of sentences from texbooks illustrating specific grammar points. Would these be ok to put up??

Also, some sort of moderation system would be great, although I dont know how it would work.. But, I definetly dont want to put alot of time into studying sentences with a lot of mistakes, or unnaturalities (is that a word?), although a mistake here and there isnt that big of a deal.

Reply #20 - 2007 October 22, 8:40 pm
sheetz Member
Registered: 2007-05-29 Posts: 213

I'm curious about the copyright aspect, as well. One of things I would like to do is to input all the example sentences from Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar.  If only the "key sentences" of each grammar point were used, you'd be able to cover virtually all the grammar taught in the first two years of Japanese study in fewer than 1000 sentences. That's a far more efficient use of sentences than picking random sentences mined from dozens of different sources. Plus there's the added bonus that you know the sentences from DBJG are in flawless Japanese and that the translations are impeccable. It's a huge task for one person to input all the sentences by himself, but if a group of us got together to work on it we could be finished in no time at all.

Reply #21 - 2007 October 22, 9:33 pm
skylarth Member
From: USA Registered: 2007-08-08 Posts: 49

sheetz wrote:

It's a huge task for one person to input all the sentences by himself, but if a group of us got together to work on it we could be finished in no time at all.

I agree. I would definetly be interested.

Also, fabrice, do you know that the reading section of the website is broken?

Reply #22 - 2007 October 23, 2:16 am
wrightak Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2006-04-07 Posts: 873 Website

So is the aim of this update to collect sentences or is there some kind of testing that will be introduced?

Reply #23 - 2007 October 23, 2:58 am
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

skylarth wrote:

Also, fabrice, do you know that the reading section of the website is broken?

I didn't! That's strange, will have a look tonight.

Reply #24 - 2007 October 23, 7:13 am
jondesousa Member
From: USA Registered: 2006-06-13 Posts: 134

wzafran wrote:

Would it be legal to put up such sentences?

I dont' believe it would be a real issue.  There are plenty of other flashcard programs online that use material from Japanese for Everyone, Genki, etc.  I think that if you are using it to supplement the study of the books, an author / publisher would not have an issue with it.  I think it would be more of an issue if one were trying to sell such information as opposed to offering it as a free additional study resource.

Reply #25 - 2007 October 23, 2:28 pm
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

wrightak wrote:

So is the aim of this update to collect sentences or is there some kind of testing that will be introduced?

No. You could do this with a customized Wiki I guess. While the application may build up a large number of sentences over time, that's not the point.

I kind of expected that people would want to copy sentences from grammar books, even systematically. I think if the sentences alone were copied and shared, it wouldn't shadow the original material, because it will be used in a different context. But since there is the "answer" side to each flashcard, it's bound to happen that users will fill in every card's description area with a grammar rule or even with a straight copy of a grammar book's entries, for example. That of course, is not acceptable.

The application is also very useful as is.

Perhaps one workaround will be to allow sharing the sentences but not the descriptions (the "answer" part). It makes some sense to me actually, considering that you should really lookup the vocab and grammar and understand any sentence you add in your flashcards before reviewing it; something you have to do on your own.

Another possibility I've considered is getting in touch with authors of the materials that people would most likely want to mine for sentences, such as Kodansha's dictionaries, and have some kind of agreement with them; as it would benefit not just learners but them also I believe. We'll see.