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The sky is blue is something that is a natural phenomenon. You would not say
空は青い unless it was out of the norm, say at night or on a new planet.
New as in events. When I say that "my shoes" are dirty, whether they've been dirty or not determines if I use ga or wa. If my mom tells me over and over again they're dirty, she's going to use "ga". If I get mud all over my shoes before school and walk in, everyone would use "wa".
Ga can also show emphasis when the same word that ga marks is repeated.
There are several usages in there. They are mixed. Trust me, they're there. There were five examples of this. The most common pattern is "ima ga ima".
You can translate sentences that end in the final base, called the Shuushikei, as the non-past tense or the predicate. I thought that for those that the predicate would be most appropriate because no context was given around it. If you were to look up those phrases as such in a dictionary, that's what you would find. So, if you typed in "to rust", you would get sabi ga shoujiru and other equivalent expressions.
The particle wa by all means since its conception is emphatic. There isn't limitation on what kind of emphasis it gives. Its basic understanding is to show the topic of a Japanese sentence, and that in itself is emphatic compared to the simple subject marker role of ga. Bound, or adverbial particles in more modern classifications, are notorious for being the most emphatic particles, and the term was defined in Lesson 2 and there should be little blue links on the words that take you to where they were mentioned.
今日は情報が多い。
I think it is completely fair to use the reading of the website in examples. It ties in great and makes a sentence that discusses the topic. And, I have to promote it within the site itself as well. ![]()
Wa and ga must never be together, that means next to each other. Ga goes on vacation and comes back in play when more obvious things are said.
I don't want to get into an argument about the lacking of these lessons, because quite frankly Tae Kim only has a line for each. Nevertheless, I do have the burden to make the best to present everything. A Japanese dictionary gives right. I mention the grammatical points you would find in any standard Japanese dictionary.
As a stand alone sentence, you can't tell whether using either ga or wa is wrong, in the sense of marking the noun of focus, without further context. There are some things that they naturally don't make sense with their definitions alone. Why would someone say "yozora wa kuroi" when everyone that has ever breathed knows the sky is black. Now, if for some reason there was a ton of light and now the sky was a grayish-whitish color, you would hear "yozora wa hai'iro desu ne"...etc.
Wa is a bound particle because it doesn't have to grammatically be there. Before it's advent, it was left out. It is also considered an adverbial particle because it is literally saying "as for".
Your questions are good, and the answers can help make the lesson better. Your entry from that other dictionary can be implied from my text however. If, again, I walked in a classroom covered in mud, before anything is said the listeners have insight on what is going to be said. Think of a rumor going around a campus. When everyone is telling people for the first time, "wa" is used. But, as in the example in Lesson 9 showed with Hanako, everyone "knows" she hates studying. She's obnoxious about it and shows aggression towards her work in school. When she's said that she hates studying, ga or wa can be used. Ga could be used because it's obvious and firm. Wa can be used simply because of the emphatic nature of the discussion and or attitude of the people presumably frustrated with her.
Things and or events that are new are still known to a slight degree simply because you just described its status, no? New shoes are at your mall and everyone is waiting to get a hold of them. When someone is describing the shoes, what particle do you think they're using?
Hits are very important for google ranking and getting new people to discover the site. 10 more hits equates to 1 to 2 more google searches. On a day when there is 100 hits, there is around 5~7 searches. When there is 200, there is around 15. The majority of people that join and become good members normally come from these searches. So, the people here already know about my site for the most part. Whether they need to use it or not, just the helping hand can go a long ways for my project.
I hope all of this was insightful, and thank you for the important questions about ga and wa because since you're a beginner, you definitely want to get these core grammatical concepts down.
The pictures may very well be causing a problem looking at the sentences collectively for close study. I added some more information to Lessons 9 and 10 as far as explanation to help you with the things mentioned in our discussion. I sure hope this helps. I would also like to note that there were 3 specific different instances mentioned in Lesson 10 that show how wa can emphasize something in a sentence. Although the word was not used, it is important with chiasmus (a reversal of normal word order). It can be after the Ren'youkei (continuative base of a verb) of verbs, adverbs, and nouns to effectively emphasize the degree of either the action, adverb (thus modifying the verb in such effect), and topic respectively.
To buanoparte: I have finally got the meanings of the radicals posted on the resource chart.
I also took Roomaji out of Lesson 40. I will go downwards accordingly for the remainder of the day unless other issues are brought up that need to be addressed promptly.
imabi wrote:
It isn't impossible to learn Japanese without a teacher.
I don't think anyone would be able to translate a patent without someone teaching them - This isn't me having a go, I really like your site.
Technical language in any language needs study with a teacher. As for learning how to speak a language, using people, rather than being in a classroom, and appropriate resources could easily supplement if not avoid confusion. I would definitely need to take a class to understand a patent to begin with, so it really doesn't matter what language it's in because I am at a loss. It's like all the science terms I will never know.
Anyways, I do hope you enjoy it. Feel free to email me if you need any help. I need the practice of course. My goal is to be a teacher, so I need all the tutorial hours before applying as I can get.
Last edited by imabi (2012 January 07, 6:14 pm)
imabi wrote:
A nogi is a grain, and that's what that radical is used to mean in characters.
Actually, 禾 is called "nogi" because of how it resembles a combination of the katakana ノ (no) and the kanji 木 (ki). Another example of this is the repetition sign 々sometimes called "noma" because of how it looks like a combination of the katakana ノ (no) and マ (ma).
Good luck with your site. Although some of your posts here have come across as pretty hotheaded, it looks like you have put a lot of effort into your site and that's always commendable!
I would suggest you provide some information on reading really complicated sentences on your site as this is what messed me up. Stuff like identifying extended sentential units and which part modifies which. Pages 612-618 of Makino and Tsutsui's a dictionary of basic Japanese grammar and pages 55-77 of the intermediate are the best explanations I have ever read!
I would like to see a really, long, complicated sentence dissected and explained.
Josh
Fleskmos wrote:
imabi wrote:
A nogi is a grain, and that's what that radical is used to mean in characters.
Actually, 禾 is called "nogi" because of how it resembles a combination of the katakana ノ (no) and the kanji 木 (ki). Another example of this is the repetition sign 々sometimes called "noma" because of how it looks like a combination of the katakana ノ (no) and マ (ma).
Good luck with your site. Although some of your posts here have come across as pretty hotheaded, it looks like you have put a lot of effort into your site and that's always commendable!
No, nogi is a grain as well. That is just another way to look at it. A definition of のぎ
禾・芒:稲・麦などの実の外殻にある針状の突起。のげ。
That one method of interpretation of your's is based off of mnemonics, which is also the origin of other names of bushu as well. That is a great note to mention in a discussion. Yes, noma is another example.
Thanks.
HonyakuJoshua wrote:
I would suggest you provide some information on reading really complicated sentences on your site as this is what messed me up. Stuff like identifying extended sentential units and which part modifies which. Pages 612-618 of Makino and Tsutsui's a dictionary of basic Japanese grammar and pages 55-77 of the intermediate are the best explanations I have ever read!
I would like to see a really, long, complicated sentence dissected and explained.
Josh
That is a very good idea. I am not sure if I have done this before on the site or not. I normally don't make examples that don't have something grammatically in there that I have discussed. But, there are some things that I like to slip into the examples to give a foreshadowing of what's to come. Dissecting sentences are even important in understanding one's own native language, especially when dealing with poetry (at least for me that is).
I probably would have to be directed to the ones particularly hard for this idea though. Doing everything would be slightly redundant. I do a considerable effort in my classical lessons to dissect the archaic elements. Course, yudantaiteki is by far one of the best people besides Haruo Shirane I've ever seen.
I read once where Japanese doesn't really employ as many complicated sentences structures as say European languages because even the most complicated structures are built upon simple items. Maybe if you think of everything hard coming from easier smaller parts things could be better for you? A lot of your compound particle and idiomatic expressions are kind of like.
imabi wrote:
Fleskmos wrote:
imabi wrote:
A nogi is a grain, and that's what that radical is used to mean in characters.
Actually, 禾 is called "nogi" because of how it resembles a combination of the katakana ノ (no) and the kanji 木 (ki). Another example of this is the repetition sign 々sometimes called "noma" because of how it looks like a combination of the katakana ノ (no) and マ (ma).
Good luck with your site. Although some of your posts here have come across as pretty hotheaded, it looks like you have put a lot of effort into your site and that's always commendable!No, nogi is a grain as well. That is just another way to look at it. A definition of のぎ
禾・芒:稲・麦などの実の外殻にある針状の突起。のげ。
That one method of interpretation of your's is based off of mnemonics, which is also the origin of other names of bushu as well. That is a great note to mention in a discussion. Yes, noma is another example.
Thanks.
The "No," in your first sentence is quite unnecessary as we seem to be in agreement. Many other bushu bear names born from how they resemble a combination of other characters indeed.
Keep working on your site.
I was thinking perhaps you were refuting the definition of the actual word nogi. It is a big coincidence I must say, making the name all the more fitting. I have 18 more lessons to scrap romanization out. The student is going to be kicked out of the nest sooner. ![]()
imabi wrote:
It is a big coincidence I must say, making the name all the more fitting.
Little things like this are what makes life interesting. Consequently, I firmly believe that linguistics is one of the most rewarding contexts to study Japanese in. I certainly think it's a good idea to make potential users of your site aware of some of the linguistic terms they may encounter on their journey towards fluency. In my opinion, you should not cut back on those terms but rather explain them to the best of your ability, although that may pose some problems for members with previous knowledge who may stumble upon your site and approach some of the later lessons.
I guess there's just no way of pleasing everyone ![]()
I think you should take a long sentence and show how it is manageable for example:
第1プレートの一部は第2プレート又は第3プレートと連接でき、第1ピースの一部は第1プレート又は第2プレートにスライドして組み合わせることができ、第2ピースの一部は第1プレート又は第2プレートにスライドして組み合わせることができる.
You could state that each conjunctive verb (ie 連接でき) can simply be seen as and, and that this is a way of making a sentence seem manageable. You could also explain that there can be more than one wa in a sentence -
a portion of a number 1 plate can connect with a portion of a number 2 plate or a number 3 plate and a portion of a number 1 piece can slide and join with a number 1 plate or a number 2 plate and a portion of a 2 piece can slide and join with a number 1 plate or number 2 plate.
I think you should also use colours and stuff to show what is the modified and modifier.
Last edited by HonyakuJoshua (2012 January 07, 7:03 pm)
Fleskmos wrote:
imabi wrote:
It is a big coincidence I must say, making the name all the more fitting.
Little things like this are what makes life interesting. Consequently, I firmly believe that linguistics is one of the most rewarding contexts to study Japanese in. I certainly think it's a good idea to make potential users of your site aware of some of the linguistic terms they may encounter on their journey towards fluency. In my opinion, you should not cut back on those terms but rather explain them to the best of your ability, although that may pose some problems for members with previous knowledge who may stumble upon your site and approach some of the later lessons.
I guess there's just no way of pleasing everyone
That is really true. I have been making sure to keep the lingo for later on. It's what does make some people with experience stumble. It's like going to calculus and finding out there is a calculus description which more or less means the same thing as stating the obvious.
Conjunctive verb is not a good way to describe that Joshua. The Ren'youkei there is the reason why "and" is implied, and other instances of conjunctives involve conjunctives themselves and conjunctive particles which do not always mean "and".
I have sometimes when I personally think it is incredibly easy to get lost in translation and what not bolded items. You may have noticed that even in explanations things are sometimes bolded, italicized, or underlined. I don't know about different colors because of the color of the template, but I could definitely consider bolding more things. I have noticed though that if you do excessively through a lesson, it makes a negative effect on visual appeal. And, what I have wondered is if I did bold them, would I need to underline the item in the original text, in the kana/roomaji line, translation, or all of the above. If I underlined the same thing all the way through it would make the page filled with bolded text. Perhaps limit it to the translation which is the hardest part?
Last edited by imabi (2012 January 07, 7:15 pm)
imabi wrote:
Conjunctive verb is not a good way to describe that Joshua. The Ren'youkei there is the reason why "and" is implied, and other instances of conjunctives involve conjunctives themselves and conjunctive particles which do not always mean "and".
There is no fixed terminology for Japanese grammar - I have heard the ren'youkei called conjunctive.
such as here:http://www.laits.utexas.edu/japanese/kyookotoba/bumpoo/dooshi.html
Last edited by HonyakuJoshua (2012 January 07, 7:43 pm)
No fixed terminology? I would disagree with that. There are fixed terms for everything--at least in Japanese itself. My classical Japanese textbook starts with an index of them. The Ren'youkei should be translated as the continuative base.
The subjunctive mood can indeed be called the conjunctive mood, which is then an extension of the Ren'youkei, but you shouldn't interchange the entire of the roles of a subjunctive tense like in European languages to Japanese grammar.
Last edited by imabi (2012 January 07, 7:45 pm)
I meant to write conjunctive - sorry I was eating spaghetti and cheese whilst translating a doctoral dissertation whilst replying. There aren't fixed terms in Japanese grammar like in Eurpoean grammar. I have read authorities call desu a verb whereas others call it a copula.
Yes, ren'youkei is a popular term, but what i described to start with, ie でき is often called the conjunctive.
In Japanese there are. 連結詞 means copula, and it is classified as a 助動詞. でき in isolation would be a 体言. In context it's in the 連用形 with a 接続的な使用. There's more consistency than you think in Japanese texts. I know there isn't in English texts for Japanese, some books don't really appropriately classify things either, calling things particles, suffixes, etc. when they are actually something different but similar.
imabi wrote:
In Japanese there are. 連結詞 means copula, and it is classified as a 助動詞. でき in isolation would be a 体言. In context it's in the 連用形 with a 接続的な使用. There's more consistency than you think in Japanese texts. I know there isn't in English texts for Japanese, some books don't really appropriately classify things either, calling things particles, suffixes, etc. when they are actually something different but similar.
Oh ok, great I agree with you then. I'm only saying that I would like to see more on unravelling really long, boring sentences as this is where I became unstuck. Are you familiar with the passages I was on about in the basic and intermediate dictionaries of Japanese grammar? I can email you them if you want?
I am afraid I am not familiar. You may email the passages if you would like, and I will have a look at them. I will be sure to try to dissect things whenever it crosses my mind.
To have a long nose is 鼻が高い not 鼻が長い. I have never heard 鼻が長い before and indeed when looking online pretty much the only example I saw was 象は鼻が長い. And all of the dictionaries translate "a long nose" as 鼻が高い. It took me a long time when I first came to Japan to figure out that when people said 鼻が高いね!they were saying I had a long nose. (This is something white people will be told a lot and Japanese seem to really love 高い鼻 on foreigners. That and 顔小さい.)
鼻が高い is to be proud. And, I got the sentence from a dictionary. They didn't say you had a long nice, they were calling you haughty. Or, they could have been saying you had a long nose. That's for people. As for elephants, it's nagai.
象は鼻が高い wouldn't be logical. The only reason we use takai for people is that we stand up on two legs versus four and our noses go down the contour of our face.
Last edited by imabi (2012 January 07, 8:51 pm)
Yes, proud is one translation of 鼻が高い. But, it is also a very common use to say 鼻が高い for a long nose. If you were talking about elephants in your example sentences then that is fine to say 鼻が長い but I didn't get that impression since you simply said 'they'. If you ever do come to Japan, you will probably hear 鼻が高い all the time since, like I said, Japanese people tend to have a fascination with foreigners and their 高い鼻.
Anyway, I am not in the mood to argue. Take it or leave it. It's your site.
I'm not saying that 象は鼻が長い is wrong. I said the only example I found of 鼻が長い was with elephants. I didn't see any examples of 鼻が長い used to describe a person.
edit: I just asked my husband and he said 鼻が長いはすごい変じゃないけど鼻が高いの法が普通かな。鼻が長いはあまり言わないね。
Last edited by thistime (2012 January 07, 9:06 pm)
Are you talking about in Lesson 9. I used elephants as far as I remember. Oh, I didn't. I will fix that. I would agree with your husband. I guess I didn't realize I wrote that. Thanks.
Oh, and there's no way I'm going to finish much of the romanization curtailing project today. I'll have to do 1 or 2 a day.
Last edited by imabi (2012 January 07, 9:16 pm)
I always assumed 鼻が高い refers to the more pronounced (high) bridge of the nose of Caucasians compared to most Japanese. This makes the nose look longer, but it actually isn't. Do people actually say 鼻が高い for elephants?

