sesshomaru wrote:

The phony hysteria here is what makes is 'anti marketing' so effective and at times quite funny.

I don't think many of the people who bothered to read this thread hadn't already heard of AJATT and I'm a bit skeptical that reading it made anyone more likely to purchase his product.

IceCream wrote:

I don't think there's really much "information asymmetry" about Khatz's products, per se. I mean, everything is stated pretty clearly on his site. It's not like the differences in pricing, the lack of refund for 18 months, or anything else is in fine print somewhere that nobody can find. It's right there, for everyone to read already. If they still want to buy it, that's their choice (or problem lol).

And, it's not like it's not blindingly obvious already that all the information on how to learn Japanese is available on the internet, for free. I guess my perception of AJATT isn't as influenced by the "guru image" as the older members of this forum, because i wasn't around at the time when people did treat him like that. So whenever i read that kind of criticism i kinda roll my eyes, because i haven't really seen anyone who does treat him like that. But anyway, so i don't really think people are buying it because they think he's god or something.

The real "information assymetry" lies in the lack of any clear, well organised resource for learning Japanese available on the internet. Almost everything you'd ever need to learn Japanese is available on these forums. But it takes time and effort to stay updated, to find the resources to begin with, to learn how to use them, to decide which ones to use and which not to, and to trawl through all the varying opinions on language learning and methods to get there.

It's overwhelming. It is even to me sometimes, and i have all the time in the world. Sometimes it takes me months to find the effort to learn a new tool. It took me a few months at the start even to find anki. If i don't read the forum for a week, i come back and know that i've probably missed something cool or incredibly useful. There's weeks where i just literally can't be bothered to search for interesting stuff in Japanese. If i was working, i doubt i'd find the energy to do much at all really.

You've already seen an example of the type of person who's buying Khatz stuff in the last silverspoon thread. Someone with a job, and a baby he wants to devote all the rest of his energy to while she's awake. Is he aware that all the information and resources he'd need to learn Japanese are already available for free? Sure. Is he gonna feel cheated to know that if he learned on his own he would be at the same level without paying that money? I doubt it. Even if he knew that some parts of Khatz method are redundant, or could be done better? Probably still not.

Khatz isn't selling snakeskin oil, he's selling simplicity and organisation. It's not actually a scam, because everyone knows and understands that. The information may all be available for free, but the daily organisation isn't.

i can think of some situations i could be in where i would prefer to buy something like that too. I can think of lots of people on this forum i would rather buy it from. (i don't like his taste in dramas lol) And i can think of many ways in which the service could be improved. Especially the lack of personal tailoring would be bothersome to me. Is it worth the price? If people are willing to pay that, then it is. If they're not, it isn't. It's not like he has any competition right now though, so he can charge more.

tbh though, if someone wanted to charge a dollar or two a day just for 5-10 interesting links (tailored to my interests) that would take up a couple of hours in Japanese, it'd probably be worth it for me. i'd like it if i could just get them whenever i felt like it though...

Is the money better spent elsewhere? I guess the thing that a lot of people on this forum miss is that the worth of any one thing is relative to the chances that you're going to give up on it. Is doing RTK the best thing to do? If you're one of those people who can get it done in a month, probably it is. If you're one of those people who has tried twice in the last year and ended up missing reviews, getting burnt out and then trying again, and in the meantime haven't learned any japanese at all, well, no, it's not. It doesn't matter how ideal the method may be, it's whether you can do it in practise. If Khatz's organisation of the material keeps people doing Japanese on a regular basis, and keeps people motivated where they wouldn't be otherwise, it's probably worth it for them.

Very well stated.  You're experience sounds a lot like mine, including the initial Anki confusion. Interestingly enough, I seem to recall reading Khatz offering an explanation regarding who Silverspoon was for and who it wasn't for.

Last edited by sesshomaru (2011 August 01, 4:36 pm)

dtcamero wrote:

I didn't buy silverspoon but I can imagine some ppl that simply dont want to spend the time/effort figuring this stuff out... maybe they're time is too valuable, whatever... doesn't make the thing a scam. As long as he DOES give the money back, he's offered a product with very clear terms (you might not like them but they are clear) which would be totally acceptable to the better business bureau for example, and that rules out any snake-oil stuff. You can say it's overpriced but thats entirely subjective as mentioned earlier.

He makes the selling pitch that "You WILL be fluent in 18 months", yet there is not one person in the history of his site that has come forward to back up this claim as a personal witness to the effectiveness of this "Get smart quick" scheme.  Even a 1% success rate would be cause to take what he is saying semi-seriously, but that is not the case.

I have never heard anything so ridiculous in marketing as this 2013 delayed refund business.  Does he believe in Mayan prophesy?

Oh, another thing RE the 18 month return policy... 1) it's decent that he offers a refund at all and 2) I'm sure if you popped him a genuine e-mail explaining how your parents had died in a car crash in Mexico suddenly and you couldn't possibly concentrate on learning Japanese any more, he'd waive the 18-month bit and refund it then and there.

Many businesses do that kind of thing as good-will, but they won't advertise it because... a lot of people would abuse it.

My understanding is you can quit and request a full refund [for any reason] at any time. The refund will be paid at the expiry of the 18 months though.

The fluency guarantee is effectively meaningless [b/c a refund is available for any reason]. And you're right, it would be impossible to rely on for practical as well as definitional reasons.   It's just more hype and buzz.

Here's another puzzling bit: his definition of fluency in the original advertisement includes such things as:
         reading, writing and understanding as well as a native speaker
         in business or profession.

He removed a number of those for Rounds 2-9 which changed the defn drastically:
          transcribe a clip (writing), shadow a clip (speaking),
          read newspaper aloud (no mention of comprehension) and say something. 

But then on this last Round 10, he brought back in the full original definition.

The rest of the article also contains a whole bunch of other meanings of fluency based on his 18-month level.  Not really sure how they were meant to tie in, if at all, but they sound better than the fine print in Rounds 2-9. He even mocks the "what is fluency" question. It's so obvious: it means "awesome".  But of course.

Yeah, it's peculiar stuff, isn't it? Is he just flying by the seat of his pants without a clue or...?  So as it stands:   

AJATT wrote:

"SilverSpoon. The only program in the history of Japanese that has the guts and the goods to guarantee and deliver what you deserve: fluency in 595 days. " (bold in original)

AJATT guarantees that Silverspoon will, in 18 months, make you able to write, read and understand at the level of a profession native speaker.   

    And a future product, Silverspoon oil, will cure cancer...guaranteed.

edits for clarity in [ ]

Last edited by Thora (2011 August 25, 2:44 am)

jasdev wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejRkuX1RGf4
Thanks for this! I concur, on first impressions his Japanese is good, but better than anyone on this forum? That's a little extreme. He's certainly better than I am, though

The several Japanese friends I showed this video to were shocked; his pronunciation and way of speaking are apprently indistinguishable from a native. They all assumed he had been raised in Japan.

He is making claims for a product that has never been proven effective in the past to deliver what it promises and charging a hefty fee for it.   It is a scam plain and simple.    He could charge a fee to be a consultant offering realistic expectations and be completely legit and respected.  He has chosen the dishonest path.

bodhisamaya wrote:

He is making claims for a product that has never been proven effective in the past to deliver what it promises and charging a hefty fee for it.   It is a scam plain and simple.

So that means ALL new products brought to market are scams? Huh..?!

Anyway it has been proven effective; by him. He used the system on himself and it worked - whether you believe that or not is a separate matter..

Tzadeck wrote:

Err, he's distinguishable from a native.  Not that I doubt that you may have Japanese friends who said that; Japanese people sometimes say strange things when it comes to assessing their own language (which is the reason that that TokyoZeplin guy on Youtube is convinced that a lot of Japanese people, including college grads, only know 500 kanji).

so now native Japanese people are wrong; only other Japanese learners can judge him? LOL! This whole thread is utterly ridiculous..

Btw, There is a big difference between Japanese people being modest about their own abilities, and lying about some random video they've been shown on youtube.

Anyway I believe magamo said a similar thing about the video when he saw it, and I think most people on here trust his judgement; where he that guy when we need him?

aphasiac wrote:

Anyway it has been proven effective; by him. He used the system on himself and it worked - whether you believe that or not is a separate matter..

No, it's not a separate matter whether others believe anecdotal claims over the Internet, since their nature means that only the gullible and irrational will believe them (especially now, years later—you don't actually believe that the video is a reflection of Khatzumoto's skills in 2006 and that he was using the same cards and workflow then as he recommends now, or that he didn't study grammar, etc.?). The personal claims themselves are a separate matter in that they're irrelevant to whether he can offer good advice, whether the advice is something you need to pay for, whether an 18 month delay on a refund is something we should criticize, and whether a person with a brain can decide for themselves whether a methodology is worthwhile or not.

Last edited by nest0r (2011 August 01, 11:37 pm)

bodhisamaya wrote:

How many years has he been preaching "You too can achieve fluency in 18 months"???

Not one person who has followed his advice has duplicated his supposed results!

1) Check again - he has loads of positive testimonials on his site.

2) Magamo translated the AJATT site and used the method to learn English (after seeing khatz's youtube video and being convinced that it works); his written English is now better than most natives.

3) AJATT is pretty hardcore in the beginning (listening all day to stuff you don't understand), so most people don't actually follow it and instead use a modified watered-down version. The purest form I've seen on this forum is by icecream and ta1212, and both of them achieved great things very very quickly..

Last edited by aphasiac (2011 August 01, 11:39 pm)

Not exactly:

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=57360#p57360
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=56855#p56855

At any rate, just like a person making anecdotal claims online, native speakers aren't magical deities you should automatically listen to. People respect @magamo because magamo demonstrates aptitude at exposition and thinking analytically about Japanese and learning.

According to my Japanese friends, I was speaking wonderful Japanese after only one week of study. 上手ですね！