When I start criticising you in 3 years you can point to those comments as evidence of me being fickle.

Tefhel wrote:

But I don't devote a large portion of my free time to raging about those things - I mean 22 pages, really?

About half this thread is people defending AJATT, and you've managed to fill up almost a whole page worth of comments yourself in this fight with nest0r.  So it's not like it's just 22 pages of people talking shit about AJATT.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2011 September 04, 6:46 pm)

[split from previous post b/c it's actually a response to aphasia's various posts on politeness and defamation]

We all have our own style of delivery. You get to know whether things are meant more for effect or are meant to be taken literally or legally. (For eg, if boddhi says that politicians are murdering homeless people, we know he doesn't really mean murder in a legal sense.)  On the other hand, even though people are less likely to take internet forum comments too seriously, I think it's important to avoid stating that individuals have actually committed crimes or anything known to be untrue that would seriously damage their reputation. But stuff like "people buying this are insane/suckers" or "Bush is a thief" are okay. As are other some comments that seemed to get you riled up. 

The higher tolerance for criticism of public figures could apply to Khatzumoto to some degree. As an extreme, intentionally controversial and often sharply critical comedic internet persona, he can't expect the same treatment we would extend to a regular member here. I bet he can handle folks "being mean" (after all, the blog is designed to get a reaction.) He probably enjoys the publicity most of the time. But it's important not to take it too far in a way that people could take seriously.

aphasia, I think your outrage threshold is a bit too low. In this thread, I think you've reacted somewhat emotionally and exaggerated a bit to make your points. (Tzadeck responded to that calmly.) That's fine, you have your own style. But I did mention finding your personal insults to be out place. Yet you were the one to twice invoke Fabrice's politeness guidelines!   (btw, the bits you bolded were about criticizing Heisig's method given that this is a RTK site, not about criticizing any methods.)

So... here's the compromise I would propose for future threads: ajatt defenders could chill about stuff like "buyers are insane/suckers" and ajatt critics could tone it down a bit when it comes to accusations.  That might reduce threads by half.    :-)

aphasiac wrote:

I agree; it's hilarious how emotionally invested the haters are on this thread! We now have posters researching Japanese business law, just to try to get a little victory (a meaningless one, as we have no idea what contract SS-ers signed).

The irony of course is despite all this hatred, the comments from actual SS sign-ups on here and on their blogs is overwhelmingly positive; they love the product! Maybe that'll change a year from now, but still seems this has gone far beyond trying to save people from ripped off, into something more personal and grudge-like..!

It really doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience arguing with people.

You're right that the Japanese business law thing is basically irrelevant to the core of this discussion, and it was basically introduced ad-hoc as another way to criticize AJATT.  But, that's how people make arguments on BOTH sides of every argument ever made by anyone.  It's just human nature.

I've argued with people a ton in my short life, partly because I was a philosophy major, partly because I'm stubborn, and partly because before I came to Japan I was an atheist living in America (which always leads to arguments, haha). 

Since I'm an atheist, I'll just take the example of arguments over the existence of God.  Now, really, this is a pretty narrow argument that really should only focus on an ontological question.  But, if you look at people who are arguing about this question, even those who are professionals in that they have published books on the topic, there are all these OTHER arguments that are strictly speaking unrelated to whether or not God exists.  Does religion cause war?  Have mass murders been more inspired by religion, or atheism?  Will thinking that God does not exist destroy morality?  If religion goes away, will we have something to take its place as a muse in art?

All these questions arise basically because people are trying to score additional points on their side of the argument.  But really, these questions have nothing to do with whether a God exists.  It's just human nature that people, when arguing, try to score additional points on their side in whatever way they can.

You're failing to view this objectively--you're accusing the other side of this, without realizing that of course your side has also done this.  It happens in every argument and on every side. 

You're also assuming that people against SS are more emotionally invested in this then they actually are.  BOTH sides continue to post rebuttals after 22 pages, so aren't both sides equally emotionally invested?  The negative side may seem more emotionally invested, but it's really just that negative language is perceived in a worse way than positive language.  I don't feel particularly invested in this argument emotionally, even though I've been a regular contributor throughout.

tokyostyle wrote:

nest0r wrote:

For the type of language learner who wants to get ripped off? Very useful.

It's not a rip-off.  It might be over-priced, like the cost of diamonds thanks to diamond cartels, but you get exactly what it says there in the "What You Do Get" section.

Is that the section that promises fluency? At any rate, it's definitely a ripoff. Exploiting new learners with false promises and bad methods in an overpriced system with zero accountability.

I'm interested that you're still posting on this forum! You seem to hate it so much, from what you've said about it. I thought you went over to the pay-only AJATT forum since you said that's the only way to ensure the forum is good?

Last edited by nest0r (2011 September 05, 12:32 am)

aphasiac wrote:

I agree; it's hilarious how emotionally invested the haters are on this thread! We now have posters researching Japanese business law, just to try to get a little victory

That'll happen when certain people are throwing around words like "libel."

Last edited by JimmySeal (2011 September 05, 12:38 am)

your being frodded by khatz and u aint even know it

I was defrocked by Khatzumoto. Twice.

If you said what you have to say, why are you taking this 22 pages long?

Tomorrow I will add a 5$ membership with some extra features and oooOOOOh I will be evil personified! Fabrice is ripping us off! He's asking 5$ for something that already exists on some website somewhere in the corner of the ultraverse! How could he think we are so gullible? We can learn this by ourselves!! We don't need no stinking 5$ membership, just use dictionary and a paper bookmark and it'll do the same! Fabrice you suck, plz delete my account I don't want top participate in this community anymore!

Etc. etc.

This thread ought to be closed. It isn't about AJATT anymore, it's an e-peen match.

EDIT:

To be clearer, at the end of the day it's not healthy for the community here to foster this attitude of "ganging" up on one forum to diss on another website's product. You had 20+ pages to say what you don't like about it.

This type of threads not only fosters a me vs you attitude in regard to the other website/product it also creates more animosity in between members here through pointless arguing.

If Thora is so concerned about helpîng people not getting "ripped off", then the best way to do this is to write a few good posts on a Blogger account. That gets indexed very nicely by Google.

In other words, this thread feels like a uni directional communication. So go write on Blogger.