Tzadeck wrote:

Actually, Japanese people sometimes seem pretty confused when you hold the door for them.

Heck yeah! Especially when your holding it open for a dude!

The fact is that Japan, in general, has a kind of politeness that is rather appreciated. I join those who say they prefer the smile (as fake as it may seem) of the staff in stores in Japan (Tokyo, where I live) than in my home country (Mexico) or in America, where sometimes the staff seems to be done the impossible to scare away customers. Even so, this Japanese guy's concern is not the politeness itself but its sincerity. Is it worth to appreciate politeness when it is fake? How can we be sure someone is being polite from the heart or only for compromise? Is it wrong a culture that promotes adopting (stereotyped) masks over real intentions? Being honest, I think this questions may apply to any country and any culture, since there is not a single society that is based in "real feelings" and "open sincerity". Lets face it, living in society implies some degree of hypocrisy. Without pretending it would be impossible to tolerate each other. We cannot live out of the system so at least we should learn to cope with it. Millions of people in Japan are eager to sacrifice expressing their own feelings for the sake of harmony (和) or so they say. Maybe lots of them do think so genuinely. Even more, certainly this behavior does smooth the everyday treats and we should value it. On the other side of the mirror, we have societies that highly appraise freedom and urge for the individual to do his free will. Western societies are (in a variable degree) more prone to this trend. Of course, as humans, we can accomplish the supreme act of desiring contradictory things: We may want to keep harmony but we also want to be free. For the sake of the impartiality, I should say that politeness to the Japanese extreme also has its dark side: Pretending all the time generates stress that has to be relieved somehow else. In a more general context, Japanese society is very oppressive in some ways and not everyone can accept its patterns.  As humans, we have the right to disagree. At the end of the day, a society is made by its people and it is the people who decide the rules under which they live. In the past, many Japanese were satisfied with the 本音/建前 system but now there is an increasing number of Japanese who want to change.

In conclusion, I should say that yes, Japan society tends to pretend and show a nice smile most of the time, yes, sometimes that face is a mere mask, and yes, as much as there are times that I love that mask (so much that I also wear it sometimes), there are also times were I would  like to be the salaryman sitting next to me, tired and drunk, going in the last train to home because he had to attend a 飲み会 to which he could not refuse, or he would have deemed as a "inharmonious" element so I could go to my boss and tell him, sorry, my working time is over, I have more (important) things to do in my life.

dizmox wrote:

The 店員 I was talking to in Takashimaya were really nice. They said I was sexy. :3

That's what they said about me in a maid cafe too. Don't quite believe them though :p

Though it did work wonders, I spent quite some yen there.

Last edited by paasan (2011 July 20, 5:12 am)

I don't honestly believe this is a Japanese thing, it applies to all people and all cultures. I remember reading it was some kind of theory in psychology, where we each have different masks that we put on in different situations (personal, job related etc.), I think it's probably more extreme in Japan compared to the West, especially where I'm from. Dutch people tend to be very straightforward and do not care so much about appearances, i.e. people think it's preferable to show someone your true feelings, even negative ones because it's considered to be more of a courtesty to be honest about your feelings. Of course this doesn't apply to customer service and the like, but that goes without saying.

Last edited by Kuma01 (2011 August 12, 10:50 am)

ThomasB wrote:

But I agree that there is a lot of Tatemae, but that's a matter of culture, not a matter of human courtesy. But I totally understand how someone can be put off by that, especially in a working environment where people are extremely nice to you face-to-face but once you leave the room they'll start to talking crap about you. Too common. I guess that what the author really wanted to say, I don't think he was talking about customer service.

That happens everywhere. Seriously, I got sick of this attitude when I lived at a boarding school last year, and that was in Norway. But then again, this is Norway, the country where you never end any of your orders with "please." and where personal space is sacred...

vix86 wrote:

I often wonder what search terms people use to dig these old threads up. (Note: You necroed a 1 year old discussion).

In my case, I clicked a linked to it someone posted on facebook today.

Last edited by maxhodges (2012 July 30, 4:20 am)

First things first, I just want to state the obvious beforehand: we are talking here about cultures as a whole, which is always unfair, because you could find "angels and goblins" wherever you go (BTW, I don't like that much this kind of "black" or "white" classification whatsoever ;-).

dizmox wrote:

Or because here we don't wear masks out in public to prevent infections from spreading to other people, we're being rude. No, it's just not part of our culture.

I think it's rude.

I wish it were part of our culture... I'm going to buy some masks when I'm next in Japan and wear them when I get ill next. That will spark a trend.

Exactly. But I also think it's rude to not keep open a door for someone who's coming right next to you, while it's rude to expect someone to keep the door open for you if you are far behind. In this particular case, the heart of the matter is being able to put yourself in the others' place, and make a small, insignificant effort to avoid a greater hustle onto another person (even if it isn't big either, whether you know that person or you don't). IMHO that's one part of being truly polite (although not the most important).

As explained by Richard Dawkins' "Meme" theory [1] and other philosophers after him (although I'm not quite fond of the theory for the most part), there are "comparable" and "incomparable" memes (consider a "meme" as some specific, discrete behavior which spreads until forming a characteristic part of a culture). An example of an incomparable one could be the half of the road used for driving (there are no differences or advantages in using one or the other, as long as there is a consensus). An example of a comparable one would be whether wearing masks to avoid spreading infections or not do so (although there could be some controversy among immunologists about which one wins that comparison).

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

That said, every culture has its own share of hypocrisy, as perfectly explained by gesserit. Faced with that, you usually have to deal with some hypocrite aspect which you like (e.g. customer service) and some you don't. I think it desirable, sane, and even necessary to discuss about all those aspects, and to express the reasons why you love or hate them (while some may think it's plainly rude to talk about cultures that aren't your own ;-). Nonetheless, in order to be able to criticize (instead of being blindly defensive about) some aspects of your own society, you *must* have experienced at least a different one, which is a step a big part of humanity has never taken. What's worse, there are some people who's been to many countries and never dared to try and grasp their particular way of living (it's pathetic, but they even expect to be served their hometown food everywhere they go!)

A young person complaining about what he/she finds harmful in his/her own culture is a perfectly normal thing (but it'd be interesting to know their actual motivations for doing so, maybe it's true it's just a depression case). Every generation has to pay attention to the values inherited from their ancestors, but only to take what it's desirable and destroy what's negative. Culture is not unmodifiable nor monolithic, everyone has an effect over it, and educating the new generations about why things are done the way they are, as long as to teach them to properly think by themselves, plays a capital role, for they are the ones who'll have to take our place in creating/modifying/defining/evolving the way they deal with the world, so it'd be better if they are really prepared for it.