I do believe Europe has evolved faster than America in almost every way imaginable, but the practice of psychiatry itself still hasn't reached the level of a science yet in my opinion. It was only a few decades ago they were using electric shock treatment and performing lobotomies.  I have not read any statistics on the mental well being of psychiatrists, so I do not know this as fact for everyone, but the friends I have made in the profession seemed to have been at the jumping off point of mental illness themselves. 

I don't want to endorse any religion because meditation is technically not a religious activity, but I believe bringing focused awareness of how you feel while in depression with a sober mind and a teacher to explain each stage is the the best long-term solution to eliminating the emotion.  There are groups of people who have lineages of teachers going back thousands of years perfecting the art.  Those are the true mental health experts.  They will demand you flush the pills though.

I think the desire to seek a more homeopathic lifestyle would be a natural consequence of meditation practice.   You become more aware of the cause/effect process at more and more subtle levels.

I can't imagine of a situation where a drug would be more effective than meditation for any emotional problem long-term.  Short-term, chocolate and shopping are very effective for beating the blues as well.

Javizy wrote:

We could try to understand the reasons behind our pain and explore the possible ways of treating it, but we just throw drugs at the symptoms and hope there are no bad side-effects. Your headache will be back though; even if it takes time, and even if doesn't turn into the migraines that led you to medicate in the first place. You don't find a cure by treating symptoms in complete ignorance of their causes.

Right, i'm going to tackle this widespread idea that medication just "covers up" underlying problems, and they will inevitably return. Then i'm done.

So, what kind of "reasons behind our pain" are we talking about? Well, you mentioned the stress response as one of them, and this is going to be true for many cases of depression. Taking Raschaverak as a case in point, the things that i would think are triggering that stress response for him are, extremely negative thinking in general, and far too much bad self criticalness (trying to turn his problems into a scientific study to correct them).

Now, specifically, the things he's going to need to do to correct that is practise viewing things positively, and learning healthier ways to be self critical, such as making things into fun challenges, rather than identifying a problem and then being overwhelmed when thinking about the work needed to correct it. He basically needs to learn to relax into life, and just enjoy it.
(I'd also advise that he travels around & moves somewhere new, as that's a perfect opportunity to make a lot of new friends.)

The problem is, those things are practically impossible to sustain if you have any kind of serious, long term depression. If you have somewhat milder depression, that can be relieved by making various life changes such as excersise and eating certain foods, then you can relearn how to live in this happy, more relaxed state while you're making those life changes.

What was interesting to me about meditation when i was reading about it, is that it's very close to the same thing... you "practise" being in a certain mood, or feeling compassion, and that's how you come to be that way. You learn to relax into life, and enjoy it. It's basically the antithesis of how you came to be depressed in the first place. The same goes for CBT, and those other things. You practise different thinking patterns and moods, and your depression is relieved. Again, these are very good methods for people who haven't been depressed long term.

My own experience of trying these things was somewhat different though. Certain types of food and excersise would relieve things for a little while, but i couldn't attain that feeling at other times. I practised shittons of positive thinking for months on end, but at the time, that stress response was just, so high, that it's just like painting a smile on top of a pile of rubbish. So, you're smiling with your face, but it still essentially feels like your insides have fallen out somewhere. Your thought's might be correct, but how you feel doesn't match, or doesn't stick.

If those problems are also accompanied by not having a supportive circle of friends, or intense lonliness the way Raschaverak's is, it's going to be even more difficult. Because people just generally don't like negative, depressed people. And when you try to be happy, often you just come off as plain weird, or maybe trying too hard. Again, social life is something you have to relax into. But when this is also feeding into your stress response, obviously that's not the best circumstance to learn in.

So, let's get to medication. How does medication work? Well, like a lot of people said, at the beginning it just numbs you. But this is hugely beneficial in cases like these. Because at the same time you're learning not to care so much about those extremely painful thoughts. They don't affect you in the same way anymore.

Past that, all those good parts of your personality start to re-emerge because you're not so negative anymore. You can remember what it feels like to just be you, and be happy. If you're depressed for a long time, you forget who you are even, nevermind any good points about you. And this was the state you were aiming at in the first place. You start to notice all the great, beautiful things about the world again. At this stage, you're learning to relax into life, and learning how to be happy.

As far as it goes, up to this point, you should take a holiday from life if possible, and just enjoy the new way of living, on your own.

You should probably keep taking your medication until you meet a load more of those generally stressful situations that everyone meets in life. The anti-depressants won't stop you from feeling unhappy, or the stress response from happening, but they will stop you from falling too far, for too long. And gradually, as you meet these situations and realise that you haven't got majorly depressed again, you inadvertantly learn how to not be stressed about these things. You just learn to not care so much, that nothing is really that big a deal, and how to not take life so seriously. Here, you've learnt how to relax into life, be happy, and deal with day-to-day stressful things. What's more, you've put in a ton of practise at doing it. And that's all it takes, really.

So when people tell me that anti-depressants just cover things up, and those problems will return, i just think that's unjustified. Anti-depressants give you the space and the peace of mind to learn all those things that those other methods train you on. Either way, you've still learnt them. If your depression was more mild in the first place, sure, go and practise and learn them on your own, without medication. But if it's more severe, you'll probably be fighting a losing battle at worst, and making your life a lot more difficult for a lot longer than it needs to be at best.

The extent of Rascharevak's self criticalness and negativity, the length of time he's experienced it, the poor concentration and memory, his external situation, the references to suicide, and the fact that he's excersising already and generally not living unhealthily lead me to think that medication is almost certainly going to be the most helpful option for him at this point.

...and that's the last time i'm going to defend medication on these forums. Unless, of course, one of those medical companies wants to approach me with thousands of dollars, of course then i'll happily defend them further!

Raschaverak wrote:

Aaaand got rejected again on a date.....now I feel lost The girl was perfect: smart, tall, sexy, nice face, nice personality...aaand I failed. Again. I tried to be positive, talked about my plans, whatsoever, but somehow she sensed that I was anxious (well I was, but not because of the her company, but because of my damn cluttering...argghh), that lead her to questions about social life and circle of friends...aaaand I think that's where it stopped.
I've just done some extra reading, it turns out women hate introverts.....perfect. Hm.....I have a capsule full of Frontin left from last year, I wonder If I should just......
Really, I've noticed that I'm happiest when I don't go anywhere. Never outside, just staying in my room. Really, I don't want to go outside anymore.....

Don't let it get to you, this happens to everyone. I believe this will very per person but you have to be able to brush yourself off if anything happens. That's how I do things at least. In the past when I got rejected for asking about dates or relationships,etc. I just went on and looked for the next time. When I think about relationships and all that, I know I had a few chances in the past to take them and I didn't. Sometimes I knocked myself down for it but now that's a distant past. You just need to keep going and laugh at it.

IceCream,

You make a good case. As I said, I'm sure there are times when medication could help, especially in the more severe cases, where the kind of motivation needed for self-improvement just isn't there. It's possible to take paracetamol and treat the chronic muscle tension in the back of your neck causing your headache. Wouldn't it be nice if doctors at least gave you a quick palpation and encouraged you to think about your posture, sleep habits, tension etc before sending you to the pharmacy? If this is a typical scenario, then good, but I do wonder, considering how difficult it is for people to face their problems, especially in front of other people. If you're convinced that the cause is physical, like some people seem to me, then it's much easier to just take the prescription and say no to your first CBT session.

What was interesting to me about meditation when i was reading about it, is that it's very close to the same thing... you "practise" being in a certain mood, or feeling compassion, and that's how you come to be that way. You learn to relax into life, and enjoy it. It's basically the antithesis of how you came to be depressed in the first place.

There are many kinds of meditation, so I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but what I've found helpful more than the meditation itself is applying the principles of mindfulness to everyday life. The idea isn't to strive to think a certain way, or judge and banish the thoughts that pass through your mind, but to accept them as they are and let them go; the focus is simply on being in the present moment. The practice of meditation allows you to strengthen your ability to do this.

It's possible to apply it to emotions, physical sensations, sounds and pretty much anything else that you can perceive in real-time. It's absolutely invaluable in controlling your stress response. It's not always possible or even advisable (it's designed to protect you from danger) to prevent, but by being aware of it - by sensing it - you can lessen its impact and avoid habitual, unconscious reactions. It gives you the opportunity to respond to stress.

Eventually, you'll find that a lot of the little things that cause you stress no longer seem significant, and that you don't feel like giving any energy to the "bigger" things like worrying about your future or social skills or whatever causes you anxiety, because you're much happier just appreciating things in the present - stress-free. I've pretty much transformed a 15-year anxiety habit over the past five weeks, and the more I learn about stress, the more determined I am to eradicate it from my life completely.

IceCream wrote:

that wasn't the question, Bodhisamaya. He's asking you how to determine, "scientifically" what the best form of treatment is.

Is there a drug that cures, rather than delays depression to when you come off it? 
Meditation with the guidance of an experienced instructor does cure depression.

IceCream wrote:

As for the rest of the program's claims, the things like "it's not a good idea to give antidepressant and antipsychotics to pregnant women and children" are very true, but doctors here are also very aware of that, and don't except in exceptional circumstances.

The things like psychological problems are entirely made up, and antidepressants have no effect obviously aren't true.

Things like the side effects and problems withdrawing do exist, but they twisted them to make them sound a lot more problematic than they are in real life, and generally listed the least common, and worst side effects that there can ever be.

etc.

I thought this was a very level-headed assessment.  Documentaries and biased info like this are good to make you aware of the propaganda being pushed on people today, not necessarily good to take the opposite advice though. More research is needed if you want to plunge to the other side.

IceCream wrote:

...and doctors do often suggest non medical solutions. You will be told to get an excersise routine and keep it (i got told off by the doctor for this just the other week). You can also get some form of CBT, social skills training, and various other means of support from doctors.

The issue i think a lot of people have with this is that it's usually not so well-favored as the main solution.  I think drugs are pushed as the main solution. And I'm not sayin that's the doctor's fault.  It's always multi-sided.  People (as a result of the educational, media, and social spheres, etc) are just taught to think they can take a pill to solve everything.  as a result of such pressures, the doctor would rather probably succumb to their wishes so they could see more clients and bill more to the insurance companies.

bodhisamaya wrote:

I think the desire to seek a more homeopathic lifestyle would be a natural consequence of meditation practice.   You become more aware of the cause/effect process at more and more subtle levels.

I can't imagine of a situation where a drug would be more effective than meditation for any emotional problem long-term.  Short-term, chocolate and shopping are very effective for beating the blues as well.

I think you're confused by what homeopathy is.  Maybe you mean holistic?  Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine that uses highly diluted substances (in fact, so diluted that none of the original substance remains) in order to help with various problems or diseases.  I was wondering how you could determine whether a certain non-scientific solution is better than another one.  Is meditation more effective than homeopathy, or is homeopathy more effective than meditation?

And, my second question is more along the lines of "Why should I care what you think?"  IceCream says that for her depression is a very physical thing, and that medicine helped her get through it and has improved her life in the long term.  You say that medication is not helpful in the long term, and that meditation is.  Why should I believe you and not her?  How do I determine which one works better?

The fact is that personal experience doesn't mean shit her.  The fact that meditation has done a lot for you does not mean that it's going to cure Raschaverak's depression.  Likewise, the fact that medication helped IceCream does not mean it will help him.  This is a bigger question about how you determine whether one method is more effective than another--all the while knowing that there is no perfect solution.  I wanted you to comment on that.  I think it's important to have an understanding on that bigger question before giving other people serious advice.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2011 June 06, 9:31 pm)

I don't know much details about drugs effects on depression (know more on general drugs effects in general) and yes i'm biased towards drugs but am open to modifying positions, but I just wanna steer this convo towards more concrete evidence than beliefs.  We have bodhi sayin "Drugs seem to have proven they do not cure depression, only deaden the emotions temporarily" and icecream saying (correct if im mistaken) the opposite? or is it more drugs can prevent longterm brain damage from depression? In any case i think it'd be helpful if you linked what you thought was the best evidence for that claim.  Please don't link dozens of studies you simply read the abstract of in pubmed; link stuff u actually read or link to some expert's blog (i think mainstream reporting is too biased to trust) that analyzed the study.

The rise of Facebook has added a new perspective on all the heartbreaks I endured in my teens and early 20s.  They were all soooo beautiful, and when the relationships ended, it felt like the end of the world.  Now that I have had the chance to go back and chat with some of those old flames recently, I am like "Holy Jesus thank you for allowing me to be dumped by this horrid beast I once believed to be a Goddess!"  They all aged so poorly, got really fat and still hold on to the backwards way of thinking prevalent apparently even today in the sticks of Arkansas.

elhnad wrote:

I don't know much details about drugs effects on depression (know more on general drugs effects in general) and yes i'm biased towards drugs but am open to modifying positions, but I just wanna steer this convo towards more concrete evidence than beliefs.  We have bodhi sayin "Drugs seem to have proven they do not cure depression, only deaden the emotions temporarily" and icecream saying (correct if im mistaken) the opposite? or is it more drugs can prevent longterm brain damage from depression? In any case i think it'd be helpful if you linked what you thought was the best evidence for that claim.  Please don't link dozens of studies you simply read the abstract of in pubmed; link stuff u actually read or link to some expert's blog (i think mainstream reporting is too biased to trust) that analyzed the study.

It's both! Antidepressants don't only deaden the emotions temporarily, and they prevent brain damage. On the downside, only a certain percentage of people are going to respond fully to any one type of anti-depressant.

Here's a video that backs up that anti-depressants prevents irreversible hippocampal shrinkage: (well, it's somewhere in the video, i don't recall exactly where, sorry)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gFVQGD-aB8

i haven't watched this yet, but here's something on mental health through mindfulness from the same series of lectures for balance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdZwybJF8Uc

Last edited by IceCream (2011 June 07, 10:43 am)

Antidepressants offer no cure
What You Need to know About Depression Medication
Do Anti-depressants Really Work to Treat Depression?
Antidepressants in Bipolar Disorder

There are alternatives to medication that have proven to work over a long period of time that are free of charge and side effects.  Keep taking the snake oil if you wish at your own or public expense. 

If you want opposing papers that prove medication is effective long-term, there are plenty of doctors who are willing to sign their name to a paper written by a ghostwriter in exchange for a five figure gift from the pharmaceutical industry. 

Most likely, if you combine medication with lifestyle changes, you will see an improvement in your mood.  If you combine believing in the Easter Bunny with lifestyle changes, you will see the same improvement.   Perhaps a sugar pill to give you the confidence to start?

Experience your emotions.  You are robbing yourself of what it is to be human.   If you bring focused sober awareness into the experience while you are suffering the depression, you will begin to understand why you do not need the medication.  Negative emotions are painful if you do not recognize what they are.  Once you do, you can just notice them as a casual observer; as if you are watching a surround-sound 3D screen-enhanced drama on TV. 

If roller coasters only went up, they would be no fun.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2011 June 08, 1:03 am)