matto
Member
From: Gifu
Registered: 2011-01-15
Posts: 21
Website
I came across this interview with James Heisig last night - http://www.kanjiclinic.com/riverainterview.htm - and it got me thinking. He took something that takes Japanese students several years to learn and figured out a way to get through it in one month.
I began to wonder if the same thing could be done with a language. If it were possible to get to a high-level (let's say able to pass JLPT 1) within 3-6 months, how would such a study system look like?
According to this Wikipedia page about JLPT - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_L … 84-2009.29 - to get to JLPT 1, students with prior Kanji knowledge need to put in 1800-2300 hours while students who need to study Kanji need to put in 3100-4500 hours.
I recently completed RTK1 and have been tracking my time. It took me slightly over 3 months at an average of about 1 hour per day so let's round up to 150 hours just to be safe.
That means, the Heisig method saved me between 1150-2050 hours and took around 1/10th of the time that other methods would need.
Could the same be done for learning a language such that you can learn it in just 10% of the time as traditional study methods? If it were possible, how would setup a system?
wccrawford
Member
From: FL US
Registered: 2008-03-28
Posts: 1551
2 words: Benny the Irish Polyglot. http://www.fluentin3months.com/
He travels to a new country with the intent of learning their language, then spends a few months there and chats up the locals. By the end of it, he can have decent conversations with locals.
Despite the title of the site, he makes no claims to fluency. He does, however, claim to be able to actually use the language for his daily life.
I've been following his blog for a while and picked up quite a few good tips for language learning that I can use, and a ton that I can't. (His emphasis is on speaking, and I'm just too shy to do that in English, let alone a language I barely know.)
KMDES
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2009-09-28
Posts: 306
Obviously all this is skeptical. You've got Heisig who claims to have RTK in one month, and who is gonna call him on that because he apparently did it before pretty much any of us were born. Did anyone actually see him do it, any proof at all besides his word?
Also, Kanji is more than just RTK. RTK is pretty much just the beginning. Afer RTK you still have to figure out compounds, readings, alternative meanings, general uses, etc. Don't forget RTK3 and all the common kanji used that aren't in either book. This stuff adds up you know. You dn't just automatically know kanji completely because you did the RTK1.
Also, a lot of these 'Speed Polyglots' tend to have a much varied opinion of fluent. Usually it's something like, have a conversation. What really goes into a general conversation? Not much. Talking about the weather really doesn't require a ton of vocabulary. Also, you barely see them use the actual target language, how do you know they're as good as they actually say? Can you really consider yourself fluent if you can't read a book for an 8 year old?
Sure, they're probably good at learning the basics of a language quick and dirty, but honestly could they pass high school in that language? Doubt it.
Of course, everyone gets sold on the 'accomplish this quickly with little effeort' plans. Just take a diet pill and you'll lose a ton of weight fast with no exercise.
But in reality, they never give you the results you really want.
And honestly, who here just wants to learn just enough Japanese to order a meal, or talk about the weather?
Last edited by KMDES (2011 May 12, 10:24 am)
Cranks
Member
Registered: 2010-10-21
Posts: 477
Kanji is not really Japanese. In fact, the relatively short time of 1 month isn't even enough time to master the basics of it. Real Japanese involves manipulating the language as well as comprehending it to levels much further beyond just basic writing and reading ability. Your yardstick is too short, my friend; therefore, the time frame is too short.
Cranks
Member
Registered: 2010-10-21
Posts: 477
On a side note, yeah, there are better and faster ways to learn, but the problem is it takes you a long time to figure out how you learn and there is 'no one size fits all' in learning, although many of us are similar. Unfortunately, this makes it hard to speed ahead.
That said, the more time you put in; the more you get out of it. Put in 15+ hours a day with the perfect method for you and you could quite well pass N1 JLPT in 6 months (given you studied only for the test, not for the language skills - TOIEC learners are known for doing just that and succeeding well enough). Sadly, the chances of achieving this are pretty low, but it does seem possible to me.
#Note: With the above you wouldn't actually be able to speak and you would be more 'test ready' than 'real world ready', between which there is a massive divide.
Cranks
Member
Registered: 2010-10-21
Posts: 477
Alrighty... So I reread a bit and now I actually sort of see how this could be answered.
FOR ME to get to N1* in 1 year within a perfect situation I would need to:
Phase 1: (0-1.5 months)
1.5 months of RTK (7 hours per day) + 7 hours per day for each day with a writing/reading tutor working through pre-prepared texts (by him or her) that allow me to read these Kanji in use.
Phase 2: (1.5-3.5 months)
2 months of listening level appropriate material with transcripts and a teacher who speaks to me in English and Japanese perfectly and explains things perfectly. (10 hours per day)
5 hours of grammar, speaking and writing tutorship with the perfect teacher for 2 months.
Phrase 3: (3.5-6 months)
15 hours listening, reading, speaking, writing practice per day with a good teacher on hand at all times.
Phrase 4: (6-12 months)
Test specific practice in reading, listening for 5 hours per day.
10 hours listening, reading, speaking, writing practice per day with a good teacher on hand at all times.
Congratulations N1! 5475 hours put in to get it.
Note:
*I mean the real N1 level including the stuff that's not tested.
# In our lives often the textbook, internet, grammar book, ourselves take on the role of the teacher. We also don't lead perfect lives, so the above is impossible. 2-3 years is fine for 2 hours or so of quality study, plus a lot of extra time spent just enjoying the language, to reach most people's goals. Additionally, not everyone wants to get N1 - I want it for work, so that people will give me better jobs (I mainly study Japanese so I can understand manga and TV, not much else!)
Last edited by Cranks (2011 May 12, 11:15 am)
Cranks wrote:
Alrighty... So I reread a bit and now I actually sort of see how this could be answered.
FOR ME to get to N1* in 1 year within a perfect situation I would need to:
# Speaking is not covered
Phase 1: (0-1.5 months)
1.5 months of RTK (7 hours per day) + 7 hours per day for each day with a writing/reading tutor working through pre-prepared texts (by him or her) that allow me to read these Kanji in use.
Phase 2: (1.5-3.5 months)
2 months of listening level appropriate material with transcripts and a teacher who speaks to me in English and Japanese perfectly and explains things perfectly. (10 hours per day)
5 hours of grammar, speaking and writing tutorship with the perfect teacher for 2 months.
Phrase 3: (3.5-6 months)
15 hours listening, reading, speaking, writing practice per day with a good teacher on hand at all times.
Phrase 4: (6-12 months)
Test specific practice in reading, listening for 5 hours per day.
10 hours listening, reading, speaking, writing practice per day with a good teacher on hand at all times.
Congratulations N1! 5475 hours put in to get it.
Note:
*I mean the real N1 level including the stuff that's not tested.
# In our lives often the textbook, internet, grammar book, ourselves take on the role of the teacher. We also don't lead perfect lives, so the above is impossible. 2-3 years is fine for 2 hours or so of quality study, plus a lot of extra time spent just enjoying the language, to reach most people's goals. Additionally, not everyone wants to get N1 - I want it for work, so that people will give me better jobs (I mainly study Japanese so I can understand manga and TV, not much else!)
Just as Tzadeck already wrote above, I can't think any of these plans will seriously work out. Imagine 10 hours per day, that's a ******* lot. It is too much; I can't imagine your brain will soak up all this necessary information to that efficiently that you can become fluent in a year, no. And instead of making these plans, these proposals, one could actually really learn better 
On top of that, there are never "perfect situations"...
ta12121 wrote:
To be honest, I'd say you can study for a few hours a day but immerse for hours and hours on end. That's what I did for the first year of studying. Worked really well so far but, you definitely need breaks in-between.
Can't tell, but with me it's at last like that I can't hear the "kawaiiii!~" shout outs after 5 minutes any longer, these high frequencies of female voices is so penetrating, yak. Can't find anything I'd like listen to. I lose interest quite quickly when I don't understand anything. Comparable to Ukrainian TV my parents are watching. As long as it's Russian it's fine, but sometimes they have shows in Ukrainian. After a while I give up and just leave. What to do? Subs2SRS is working pretty well, but though, progress seems to be sooo slow compared to my reading skills T_T I wonder how you did the part of "production", ta. After core6k I will prolly switch my card layout to kana->kanji, in order to be able to write more kanji again 
