Thanks for that long reply!

Hello Tori!
ましょうか is used to express the speaker's volition: I'll ..., to make an invitation, suggestion, or a request: let's ..., 先生に聞きましょうか。 to express a conjecture: probably ...
ませんか is used along the lines of: won't you ..., or wouldn't you like to do something ... 踊りませんか。 Won't you dance [with me]? It can be seen as if you are asking that the thing you ask for really get's done. このレストランを食べませんか。

"to make an invitation", well, both have an invitory tone, right? My question was more aimed at the different/nuanced usage of those forms, but thanks for answering.

2) Vte oku / Vte aru
ておく describe an action in preparation for something. Example: ホテルを予約しておかなくちゃいけません。 I must make a hotel reservation in advance.

The second is used when something is done from someone who remains yet unnamed or you did something yourself. I don't know if the thing that is done has to remain unchanged, or can change according to different circumstances. Someone has left a book on the table. テープルの上に本が置いてあります。 Or you have made a reservation in a restaurant. レストランの予約してあります。 Which would be the result of 予約して置きました。

V-base + てしまう can mean that you have finished doing something, or doing something thoroughly or to the end.　私は朝ごはんを食べてしまった。 I ate all the breakfast. Or if you want to say that you do something in the future you can say 本を読んでしまいました。 You will read the book from front to cover. Or the other way around in Japanese. *hihi*

'-teoku' was rather clear. It describes something one does in advance/for the future.
However, the difference between '-teshimau' and '-tearu' is still not clear and the explanations from Genki 2 are somewhat irritating me ~.*

3) no naka/ue/etc. ni/de (?)
When do use 'ni' and when 'de'?
...
I would summarize it as follows: に for place description where something is
で if something takes place somewhere.

SUPER USEFUL! Thanks!!!

4) kudasai/kudasaimasenka/kuremasenka/itadakemasenka (this one is the politest I guess as it's the longest)
Which one's more polite/less polite (<  <  <)
Ordered in decreasing politeness.
～ていただけませんか
～てくださいませんか
～てもらえませんか
～てくれませんか
～てくれない

Then ~てください goes in between those:
～てくれませんか
～てくれない
??

wrote:

5) mou ichido VS. mata
Difference?
もう一度 do sth. one more time
また do sth. again.

Well, when you do sth. one more time you = do it again, right?

THANK YOU <3

Tori-kun,

Most of your questions are covered very well in the tae kim grammar. Have you read through it? There is a shared SRS deck in anki uploaded by Nukemarine, i found it invaluable for learning grammar. Didn't even take long - every day I'd read one page/lesson, then un-suspend the example sentences in anki, add notes and then review them next day. It took me less than 1 month (and im lazy).

EDIT: なら means "assuming X is true, then....". It's totally different to は (as for X, ....).

So your example sentence sort of translates "Assuming you mean the waka reference book, it's in sasaki sensei's lab".

In more natural english, "If you're talking about the waka reference book, it's in sasaki sensei's lab".

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/gr … nals#part3

Last edited by aphasiac (2011 April 21, 10:31 am)

Tori-kun wrote:

New question:

和歌の参考書なら、佐々木先生の研究室にある。
なら: "as for" and は: "as for" - What's the difference between those two particle?
[Well, my first guess is that the former has a stronger contrast than は. It's emphasized and limited, in this case, the reference book's for waka. Only they can be asked and searched for and nothing else. Right?]

和歌の参考書なら、佐々木先生の研究室にある。
If it's the waka reference book [that you're talking about], it's in Sasagi-sensei's office.

和歌の参考書は、佐々木先生の研究室にある。
As for the reference book, it's in Sasagi-sensei's office.

てある is used to represent that an action was done by another person you're not naming (either because you don't know, or it's not important).  We represent this usage by the passive in English.  So someone might ask 新しい本がもう頼んである？ (Has a new book been ordered?) because in this case either we don't know who's doing the ordering or it's not important.  Passives are usually not used here because outside of formal/written language, it's uncommon to use passives with inanimate objects like books.

Nagareboshi's answers have been good but I have one comment:

～てある in other words, is describing the end result of an action, that has taken place. It is a completed action. The action you have completed, for instance you have finished reading a book, can also carry the meaning of having something completed, for something else. You read the book, in preparation, before you started writing a report.

As far as I know you cannot use てある with your own actions unless you want to avoid saying that you were the one who did the action (for instance, if you're talking about things that various people in the office are doing and the fact of the action being done is more important than who did it).  But if you say あの本はもう読んである it's going to sound to Japanese people like someone else read the book.

If you want to use "preparation" you tend to use ておく more than てある.

てしまう indicates that an action was completed, sometimes with a negative meaning (but not always -- it's a mistake to associate this too much with negative meanings because native speakers often use it to just mean "completely do X" with no negative connotation at all).  The meaning doesn't really overlap with てある at all.

As for the ません vs. ましょう（か） with invitations, typically ましょう is used more with things that both the speaker and listener will be doing, whereas ません is more of a one-sided offer, although that's not absolute.  食べませんか? is emphasizing that you are asking the person if they want to eat, whereas 食べましょうか sounds more like both the speaker and listener will be eating.  As I said though, this is not absolute.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2011 April 21, 11:42 am)

Tori-kun wrote:

"end of an action" equals to me to "an action is completed", doesn't it?

You can "stop acting" and then you can "finish acting."
Chances are you won't 読んでしまう a book in one sitting. You can 読む it just fine, but unless it's like Dr. Seuss or something, you probably won't 読んでしまう it.

Similarly, if you're at a party, you can 飲んでしまう a drink, even if you only have a little bit. This would be the "negative/accidental" usage of it, if it was your friend's drink instead of yours that you had.

てある is, as a construct, slightly tough to get your head around, but once you get it it's like 'wow...that's simple!'
ている and てある are different in form, for one thing
窓が閉まっている <-- 閉まる, intrasitive; it's simply in the state of being closed
窓が閉めてある <-- 閉める, transitive; it's in the state in which someone has closed it
It's implied that someone -shut- the window, as opposed to the window 'being shut.'
I never thought about it, but yudan said that it's close to 閉められている
(ている　form of the passive form of 閉める, except easier to understand)

In your てしまう examples, I think they'd both be the regrettable options. Drinking your friends drink on accident and forgetting your homework are both regrettable actions. Yeah, that would probably be てしまう
But the way in which it's done completely could be said in a neutral tone. Like if you read an entire book, or if you eat your meal entirely. Because there's no more pages in the book, or food left on your plate, you've completed it.
Although, in conversation you'll probably hear it in a slight 'regrettable' tone. Not deeply "omg i feel so bad!" kind of thing but maybe, "oh crap, screwed this up!" or something

Hm, at some point the different grammatical explanations from the books I currently have are irritating and misleading. If the forms occur in text, written, I would probably understand what's being talked about or what is supposed to be said. If I have to decide, like in a test, which form to chose from A) to D) in all combinations, I'm not sure and pick in 80% of all cases the wrong one (UNICOM 3kyuu Bunpou f.e.) and I can't explain myself why.

～ておく is really clear by now.
～てしまう: Simply said, an action if finished by someone; carries the nuance of regret sometimes but not always.

Still remaining troublesome:

～ている: Progessive form and describing a state ("enduring state" They are married.)
～てある: Like the one above described a result of an action but carries the nuance that someone did it (agent often omitted -> unknown, unimportant).
Is the following example correct?
窓を開けました。(I opened the window) 今もそして開けています。 (And now it's -still- open) = 窓を開けてあります。 (Result of an action = opening the window -> remains.)


I have the feeling that the textbook Genki 2 is at some grammar points "mystifying" grammar and making it more complex than comprehensive unfortunately. It seems like Tae Kim's grammar explanations are too tedious, too simple and perhaps partially wrong/incomplete - but that's only an impression of mine. Please cheer me up guys; everybody's saying Japanese grammar is "easy" compared to kanji, but obviously with me it's not the case. It's really difficult to comprehend and I really try getting my head into various grammatical sources I can exploit for my own benefits..

窓を開けました OK
"I opened the window"

今も窓が開けています　X
If you want to say that the window still open: 今も窓が開いています
--> Comes to 開く(intransitive, happens by itself) and goes to ている
Otherwise, 今も窓を開けています -> still now I am opening the window...?

窓を開けてあります X
窓が開けてあります。
--> "The window remains opened"
The window gets the が because of the ある at the end.

Careful with your trans/intrans verbs, and make sure the を／が is matching right.
With the ている, it's normal. The て verb is the action/state that is continuing.

If you're using てある, they almost appear backwards. It is continuing to be in the state of having [trans verb] done to it. So it feels weird to use が with 開ける, when the noun before が isn't doing the action. But that's just how てある works.

First, get your transitivities covered. It's not hard, it's just a matter of "is this action happening by itself, or is something doing it to something?"
Some general rules of thumbs (but definitely not always true!)
If they end with ”える” it's probably transitive:
閉める／開ける (to close something / to open something)
And if they end with something eles like "ある” it's probably intransitive:
閉まる／開く (to close on its own/ to open on its own)
Or there's also the る／す thing:
起きる／起こす　(to wake up by yourself / to wake someone up)

In general (so, with ている） the actor gets the が, and the being acted upon get the を
私が窓を閉めました (I closed the window...let's not get into　は／が right now...)
窓が閉まった (The window closed)
So, after these actions, it would get to the state:
窓が閉まっている (the window is closed / it is in a state of having closed)

The てある is what screws things up, because the verb tying the が／を to it is the ある, not the　て form verb.
窓が閉めてある --> the same as　窓がある, except with some more information.
The 閉めてある adds the information that it is "existing" while having "been closed."
So "the window exists （窓がある） in the state of having been closed (by someone)"

So does that help the を/が confusion a little bit? I know my explanations aren't that great, but it's not so complicated when you get your head around it. Seeing a lot of examples in context would be great for this, I think.

edit: kept saying "door" instead of "window"

Last edited by Asriel (2011 April 24, 11:26 am)

Posted this in reply to you on my blog, but posting it here too, just in case. 頑張って！

It seems like you've got good explanations for everything but the difference between ている and てある。 I'll take a crack at explaining how I got my head around てある、because they are very different.

ている　is, as you said used for an action that is continuing currently, as in "We are married" or ”I'm in the process of doing my homework.”

てある means "it has been done by someone with some specific purpose."

For example, let's say I'm working at the restaurant, and someone is asking me about the prices of the different kinds of beer. If I happen to have free time, I'll answer them. If I'm busy however, I might say "すみませんけど、メニューに書いてある: I'm sorry, but they're all written in the menu." In this case, there is no continuous action. The prices were written in the menu, and now, that's where they are. Someone wrote them there for a reason. The reason was so customers didn't have to ask me the price.

Here are some other examples that might help make てある more clear.

教室に入ったら、皆の机の上に、赤いマーカーが置いてあった：When we entered the classroom, red markers had been left on everyone's desk. (Someone has left the markers there, and though we don't yet know why, they were obviously left there with some purpose.)

Now imagine you're the teacher, and you KNOW why you want the students to use red markers. "授業が始まる前に、赤いマーカーを配っておいた：Before the lesson started, I passed out red markers (in preparation for something). There's your usage of ておく。

Now let's try contrasting ている　and てある。

あのおじさんは自分の家の窓を板でふさいでいる：That man is (currently in the act of) boarding up his windows.

あの家の窓は板で塞いである: That house's windows have been boarded up (by someone for some reason).

I hope that helps.

Thanks for registering especially for that here! You're welcome, bobby! Your explanations were really helpful, but let me...

あのおじさんは自分の家の窓を板でふさいでいる：That man is (currently in the act of) boarding up his windows.

あの家の窓は板で塞いである: That house's windows have been boarded up (by someone for some reason).

The examples above you gave are a bit irritating. The first one is clear: it describes the english equivalent of the progressive form. The action the man performs is now, right now he is doing it. This usage is clear to me, thank you very much!

As far as I understood you, -tearu carries indeed the nuance that someone - but the actual "agent" is left out like in your 2nd sentence, right? - performed an action (having a result in the present not changing) with an intention (your example with the beer was quite good explaining it I found! Thank you so much for that one!). I'd really like to hear the explanation of the second sentence (above) compared with the same sentence just using -iru (not for "progressive form", but for the usage of something is enduring something) instead of -aru...

-teoku is the easiest one amongst them, I think.
-teshimau means an action has finished.


Could you say, f.e.

私はこの本を読んでしまった。 - I finished reading this book (completely. this action cannot be undone. You know what's written in the book and this "can't be erased from your memory making you not knowing what's written in there", right?)
私は宿題を出来てしまった。 (宿題をできる - to make one's homework, right? I assume this.) - I finished doing my homework. Can you say it like that?

I'd really like to hear the explanation of the second sentence (above) compared with the same sentence just using -iru (not for "progressive form", but for the usage of something is enduring something) instead of -aru...

あの家の窓は板で塞いである: That house's windows have been boarded up (by someone for some reason).

If you wanted to use ている, you would have to change 塞ぐ(transitive) to 塞がる(intransitive) and it would be OK, and pretty much mean the same thing. Minus the implication that it was done by someone for some reason.

Tori-kun wrote:

@Nagareboshi: well, what else can I say besides you are right with your observations? Hm, at some point Genki does a really good and fascinating job explaining things but on the other hand some chapters are horribly incomprehensible.. (motivate me, please. feels like a burnout.)

I agree that some points are explained in a rather incomprehensible way. And if that is the case, change the text in a way, you are able to understand it. This is what i did.

Motivation: Give up, yes, forget Japanese. I mean, come on, you don't understand it, do you? You are only pretending to understand some things. But you really know nothing, because you are not even touching the surface, of the language. Try something easier instead, like Farsi. The chances of you ever being able to understand Japanese, to converse on a near native level, and on top of that live a life over there are zero, zilch, non existent. And if you are still not convinced to give up, there is hope for you, that you get yourself together, get better, and overcome the problems you are facing right now.

Instead of doing everything concurrently, stick with one book and work through it, with other books as resource. Start to learn how to learn. Sounds stupid, i know, because you are learning already. And you have your successes the way you are learning right now. But if you know how you learn best, it will help you in the long run, to alter the way you are learning right now. Making everything more effective. 

Recently i started reading a book. It is called The Art of Teaching Science Content. I love books like these, because they are full of suggestions, to incorporate different methods into the learning process. This is something i would suggest you start doing. Read books about English Vocabulary learning, even if this is totally unrelated to anything else, and you will find new ideas to tackle problems.

Just don't give up, or else ....! And i would be really worried about the else part here, because this else is so ugly, so abominably, abysmally evil, that you don't want to find out what it is! If this is still not enough motivation for you, just say so, i have more in petto.

Last edited by Nagareboshi (2011 April 24, 12:33 pm)