jmignot wrote:

Would anybody recommend practicing this type of "native looking" script early in the process of learning kanji, i.e. while studying RTK1? Is the "Yamasa" cursive script reproduced in one of the first posts in this thread possibly a good reference for that purpose? Or can someone suggest a better one?

i think it's rare for anyone to use handwritten characters nowadays, i don't see why it would be helpful to learn. i think a lot of japanese struggle to read it too.

i was sitting with my japanese friend in japan at an izakaya talking about RTK. i pointed to a sign written in japanese handwritten cursive saying how i couldn't read it. he said he couldn't either.

touche!

remember that we're also in an age of keitai denwa and computers, and that most media is printed characters anyway, so if you want to get somewhere quickly in the language you'd be fine just learning script characters instead of spending time treading water with handwritten characters.

Although I do agree with ydtt that stroke order isn't the only or even the primary element, but I think perhaps when others mention stroke order they're almost using it as a cursive-like conceptual abbreviation for proper, consistent form, of which stroke order is a part, which is balanced out in its compromise with speed and looseness as one develops an organic familiarity with Japanese characters. Or something. ;p

I only mention that because I try to point out, tangentially, that the canonized stroke order(s) is nothing inherently superior, it's just a template that is useful for consistency in learning kanji. Cognitively I have read that radical knowledge/internal motor programming is more useful than stroke order for recall. (Although I can imagine that in developing any given consistent spatial/dynamic style that includes stroke order across characters and radicals, some sequences will naturally be easier at increasingly granular derivations.)

By the way, I think people have trouble with ydtt's shorthand because it's some 5000 year old outmoded mixture of forms that has been warped by its writer's having huffed papyrus particles whilst cloistered away in a darkened alcove.

Last edited by nest0r (2011 March 28, 9:16 pm)

kainzero wrote:

i think it's rare for anyone to use handwritten characters nowadays, i don't see why it would be helpful to learn. i think a lot of japanese struggle to read it too.

I don't know where people come up with these kinds of blanket statements.  Japanese people handwrite things constantly, filling out forms, addressing envelopes, writing notes to each other and themselves.  Japan is filled with enormous stationery stores, each of those loaded with thousands of varieties of pens, pencils, writing brushes, etc.  Do you think they're just sitting there collecting dust?


Regarding kapalama's various blanket statements, I think it's completely ludicrous to say that a non-native can't learn to write Japanese legibly.

Last edited by JimmySeal (2011 March 28, 10:56 pm)

thecite wrote:

kitakitsune wrote:

You are all doing it wrong.

Ugh, people with handwriting like that deserve to be shot.

I think you just sentenced 坂本龍馬 to death

Last edited by vonPeterhof (2011 March 29, 1:18 am)

JimmySeal wrote:

kainzero wrote:

i think it's rare for anyone to use handwritten characters nowadays, i don't see why it would be helpful to learn. i think a lot of japanese struggle to read it too.

I don't know where people come up with these kinds of blanket statements.  Japanese people handwrite things constantly, filling out forms, addressing envelopes, writing notes to each other and themselves.  Japan is filled with enormous stationery stores, each of those loaded with thousands of varieties of pens, pencils, writing brushes, etc.  Do you think they're just sitting there collecting dust?

i meant that no one really writes in that cursive style, not that people don't write things by hand.

with the exception of writing letters and mailing them, i hardly ever see cursive characters.

Just my two cents:

http://www.imagebanana.com/view/qu2na4yb/Unbenannt.png

Not quite sure why this got bumped...

(and to answer duckfan's bumping-post, you can surely print kanji flashcards using word processors on -any- modern OS, but that doesn't mean you should aspire to live your life with never writing them down. I think learning to write them correctly is important and will aid greatly in long-term retention and recognition.)

... ahem, but more interestingly, I think that the cursive script is most often found in conjunction with the old orthography (meaning obsolete kana, some modern kana but with different pronunciations, and a complete lack of small kana so you have to guess the correct pronunciation of しよ which could mean 'shio' or could mean 'sho'. I don't remember the other details of the old orthography. Also I believe 'the old orthography' was just -one- system that got popular before the modern day and there are other old systems that may or may not have some reason to be preserved).

I learned a little about it from a rather old volume with the non-unique, uninspired, and rather ironic title 'A Modern Japanese Reader' (or something close to that).   I learned more about it from watching 日本人の分からない日本語 where it is discussed in a couple episodes. (Fun drama btw, and slightly educational). My impression from the opposite side of the world and without doing any real research on it is that it's used to reproduce 'classic' and 'poetic' text or give text a 'classic' or 'poetic' feel. I'd like to learn to read it and look into it more but my hands are full enough at the moment learning run-of-the-mill modern Japanese!

Ahem. Point being, however, that being unable to read a cursive sign isn't -just- that the cursive is hard to read. It probably goes hand in hand with those obsolete characters which wouldn't be any more comprehensible in any form! (Of course if someone else knows more about it than my ridiculously scanty knowledge, feel free to correct!)

Last edited by SomeCallMeChris (2011 August 19, 6:42 pm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive  has some examples of US 'cursive' handwriting.  It is quite different from what we consider calligraphic writing styles.  Which I did learn both of when i was a kid in the late 1980s.  Thanks great grandma    My personal handwriting is like most, a hybrid of cursive and print.  Also, there are less and less elementary schools (primary school for those outside of US) even teaching it anymore.  To be quite honest, even people in my age range (early 30s) rarely use it even in personal notes and those that do still use cursive should be shot as it's nigh impossible to read most.  Heck, I have a hard time reading even cursive/calligraphic writings from a hundred to two hundred years ago.  Seriously, look up some US government documents from the early days and tell me some of that is just plan nuts, and that was what was considerd 'proper' native english handwriting of the time. :'(  they'd think we are barbarians if they saw our writing style today....