Blahah wrote:

That has got nothing to do with the middle ages or with democracy. If that's what Egyptians support, they can democratically elect a leadership who will make it legal. That's democracy. People's attitude to punishment is irrelevant to the discussion. Why did you bring it up?

Blahah wrote:

Right but if that's what the majority of the country believes, a democracy will allow them to express that view and make it law.

I totally agree with you.

These statistics have nothing to do with democracy.

If these surveys are accurate, it just means that the people want to activate the second article of the Egyptian constitution which is already making the Sharia law the principal source of legislation.

Until 1870, to be hanged, drawn and quartered (chopped into four pieces!) was a penalty in England. Yet the country was a democracy, and these were not the Middle Ages. They were the Age of Englightenment, the Age of Reason, the Age of Francis Bacon, John Locke, and Robert Hooke.

BTW, their Middle Ages were different from ours.

MSNBC: Christians protect Muslims during prayer in Cairo's dangerous Tahrir square

BBC: Egypt's Muslims and Christians join hands in protest





"Christians pray and Muslims defend them. It is a touching scene. Nothing can describe our feelings" - Michael Muneer, a Christian activist.

"By one o’clock PM, Christians started their Sunday Mass in Cairo's Tahrir Square as Muslim protesters formed a ring around them to protect them during the service."

"In return, Christians formed a ring around their fellow Muslims to protect them during prayers on Friday."

Last edited by ahibba (2011 February 13, 10:19 am)

On a recent post on his website, Robert Spencer wrote: "If I could have Mubarak’s ear, I would whisper just two words of wisdom: Tienanmen Square."

Why would any human call for shooting those beautiful people?

An Egyptian couple held their wedding ceremony in Tahrir Square in the middle of millions of protesters during the country's revolution against Mubarak

Couple Weds in Tahrir Square Amidst Protesters and Tanks!

MUST SEE: The Most Amazing Video about the Egyptian Revolution

Last edited by ahibba (2011 February 13, 2:12 pm)

ファブリス wrote:

I was so angry hearing Obama's talk a couple days ago. Why should the Egyptians even care what this sock puppet has to say?

I created this thread to invite others to celebrate with the Egyptians, for what it means and represents for the rest of the world.

Please keep your redneck views on Islam and Eastern countries out of this forum.

Good on you, ファブリス様. I was getting a headache

"Being human" is a relative concept that humanist discourse misrepresents by universal and essentialist claims. Humans have been practicing such laws for thousands of years, and they are still humans.

Some punishments appear harsh to us, but is it worse to lose a hand or to spend 20 years of one's life in a prison? Both are harsh. The Western penalty may appear less violent, but we cannot say it is less harsh.

I think part of the confusion comes from the difference between our cultures. In our countries, laws are written by elected representatives of the people themselves. If enough people feel a law is unjust or unnecessary, or that a punishment is too harsh, they can work to have it changed. We have shaped our tradition of law, and modified it to reflect our changing values. So it is all about feelings, there is no universal rule telling us what is harsh and what is not.

Clearly the punishments that we use aren't working. In Illinois they spend more each year on convicts than they do on school children. People in prison get 3 meals, a roof over their head and many times cable. For you to have this, you have to work over 50 hours a week.

If they lived in a perfect world they wouldn't need harsh rules. The truth is that they do and harsher punishment might change a few people's minds about committing a crime. The way it stands, you have people that will commit a crime specifically to go back to prison. They find it easier to deal with than the outside world. When you have that sort of mindset, there is definitely something wrong with the world.

Human experience shows that if a punishment was to act as "deterrent", then it has to be severe and exemplary. "Life cannot be safe if the habitual criminals are left unfinished" and it is better to be severe to one and save many than to be unnecessarily lenient and thereby destroy many and put the lives of millions of others at risk.

Sometimes you have to be cruel in order to be kind.

There are no punishments in the West for converting away from the dominant religion of the region.  Nor is the death penalty enforced for adultery.  Though, the divorce settlement may feel like it to some.  Rarely does one spend 20 years in prison for theft, much less have a hand chopped off.  These are just the eye catching punishments that people take notice of.  I read the Wikipedia page on Sharia law and it was disturbing to say the least.  I hate to be intolerant toward a religion, but I can't ignore what looks to be an immoral code of ethics either.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2011 February 13, 8:14 pm)

ファブリス wrote:

Only until we will know better.

Until then, let people decide for themselves and choose the laws they want to live by.

BTW, thank you for the link.

bodhisamaya wrote:

....I can't ignore what looks to be an immoral code of ethics either.

What is the definition of "immorality"?

There is no correct definition of right behavior, and morality can only be judged with respect to the standards of particular belief systems and socio-historical contexts.

Also as far as I know, there is no verse in the Koran about killing apostates or stoning. The claim that there was a verse in the Koran for stoning and was later removed is so problematic that the apologists had to actually invent the concept of abrogation to fit it in.

Last edited by ahibba (2011 February 13, 9:27 pm)

ahibba wrote:

bodhisamaya wrote:

....I can't ignore what looks to be an immoral code of ethics either.

What is the definition of "immorality"?

There is no correct definition of right behavior, and morality can only be judged with respect to the standards of particular belief systems and socio-historical contexts.

Also as far as I know, there is no verse in the Koran about killing apostates or stoning. The claim that there was a verse in the Koran for stoning and was later removed is so problematic that the apologists had to actually invent the concept of abrogation to fit it in.

Ethics is hard. 

It always reminds me of music taste.  I have a real problem with the notion that some music can be objectively better than other music.  Yet I also have a problem whenever I hear someone say something like "James Shaffer (the guitarist from Korn) is the greatest guitarist who ever lived."  (I actually heard someone say that once)

It's true that Qu'ran Alone muslims, and many other groups, don't support death for apostasy. But  many other groups of Muslims do.  I view killing people for apostasy as immoral.  There might be no grounds for one ethical system being better than another, but there can be grounds for determining whether a factual claim is true or not.  And the truth is that Gabriel never appeared and talked to Muhammad.  Muhammad made that story up, or his followers did.  To kill someone when they stop believing in something that's not true seems morally wrong to me, even if I'm also inclined to admit that cultural relativism does have a lot of pull in my mind.

Gabriel never spoke to Muhammad, Mary wasn't a virgin, the Buddha didn't sprout from his mother's side, etc.  There's an immodesty here--just with those three statements I'm saying that I'm right and almost three billion people are wrong.  But I think that's the case.  If you kill people for failing to believe such things, it seems so ridiculous to me.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2011 February 13, 10:52 pm)

Religion should be a process of efficiently examining ethics, under ideal environments with the aid of tutors who can offer advice on the best ways to approach it.  Inflexible laws with severe punishment for breaking religious law of course make this impossible.

ファブリス wrote:

Without wanting to derail the thread, the first part of Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

Just finished the film.  Very intelligently done.  It should be shown in every economics department around the world.

Edit: Just watched the original film now as well.
I  actually saw almost exactly the same information on a film called The Naked Truth 20 years ago.  It was what got me interested in philosophy again after leaving the Christian church at age 16.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2011 February 13, 11:59 pm)

I think religion should offer advice on how to live a happier life and be a better human being based on the past experiences of others, but not lay down inflexible beliefs.   How one ultimately acts or believes should be investigated on an individual basis.

Jesus wrote:

The Sabath (or religion) was created for man.  Not man for the Sabath.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2011 February 13, 11:45 pm)

Religion should defer to science what can be measured as far as the material world goes.  What can not be measured with their tools needs to be approached through contemplation.  Religion can fill that role through those who have spent their lives in monastic environments without distraction reasoning what unprovable ideas are most likely to be truth.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2011 February 14, 1:06 am)

Contemplation is one thing.

Making up random stuff and hoping it's true is another.

Whatever Western views on other cultures may be, I don't think they have a say in who gets to run the country. If a secular law system similar to the current system is put in place, great, if they vote for a strict Islamic government, tough.

Egypt has never had lots of executions for conversion, stonings, hand amputation and whatnot anyway... it's not like they're going to descend into barbarity on account of a new administration.

Surreal wrote:

Let's hope the rest of the world continues to stay updated on what happens in Egypt instead of, as is so common in modern society, jumping right on to the next sensational event. Speaking of which, how's Tunisia doing?

... this is a really good point!

does anyone know a really good site where i can read more of the background to the protests across north africa & the middle east? i've read all the bbc, but i'm looking for something a little more detailed. (something balanced though).