scuda
Member
From: カナダ
Registered: 2008-11-02
Posts: 60
Hello,
I know there are people that have customized their RTK keywords, I recall that there are a couple cases of swapping keywords between kanji just to make them more suitable, as well as modifying the default keywords.
Does anyone know if there are any compiled lists of this around? I tried searching the forum without much luck..
Thanks in advance
scuda
Member
From: カナダ
Registered: 2008-11-02
Posts: 60
Yes, thanks! I remember now, I swapped town/village last time 
Another suggestion for that list:
呂 => backbone (apparently it's a better meaning)
BTW, I was wondering...
Why are we limiting ourselves to one keyword? Since we're using computers and going from english to kanji, it's not a big deal to overload the question with all the possible words for the kanji.
We can have the cards like this:
"sparkle, clear, crystal" => 晶
I wonder if there's any reason not to do that?
Last edited by scuda (2011 January 25, 11:13 am)
Stephanie Alexandra wrote:
I find there are a LOT of characters I do this with...simply because I already know them
such as (I can only type English because my university's general library doesn't allow Japanese input):
Village > Town (Machi)
In > Center (Naka)
Bird > Chicken (Tori)
Day > Sun (interchangable)
Month > Moon (same)
Chant > Song (ge in Chinese)
Fond > Like (Suki; but in Chinese it means "Good"!)
Springtime > Spring
Plump > Too (in Chinese this character is "tai", put before an adjective like "Too cold")
...and so on and so forth. I really HAVE to change these because otherwise I will have no idea what they mean. So when I see the word for "plump" in a story I have to say "Oh, it's 'Tai'"
This gets even more confusing for me though since I study Japanese AND Chinese already, so I look at 好 and see "Like, Fond, Good" ARGHH!!!!
You might wanna be careful in doing that, since some of your replacements are used in other characters (Chicken for 鶏, Song for 歌, Spring for 泉). Heisig's method does not require a 100% correct meaning for the keyword, but there has to be only one keyword for each kanji, so you always need to make sure that the keyword you choose is not "taken", or that you can replace the other character's keyword with something else, as is the case with the "town-village" pair.
In case of characters that you know the Chinese name for, I see no problem with using those names instead of the keyword, or, to avoid confusion, putting the Chinese word in brackets next to the English keyword. I did something like this for 駄, since the keyword "burdensome" didn't trigger the story for me, but I already knew the character from my business studies (the concept of 無駄, or "muda"), so on my card it says "burdensome (muda)".
mafried
Member
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 766
@Stephanie, unfortunately the Japanese changed the meaning of many of the characters they adopted (according to my deck, about 10% have meanings unique to Japanese, to some degree EDIT: this is incorrect*). I would highly recommend against substituting meanings you already know from Chinese, especially when the meanings are quite different.
* EDIT: I now realize that the query I used to generate this number also included kanji which have the same meaning, but different form and a unique Unicode code point for Japanese. Not having the capability to separate the two, I can't tell you exactly how many look the same but have unique Japanese meanings. But from my experience, I'd wager that it's at least half this number.
@scuda, I'll see about putting together a script to export my deck. It'll be very alpha quality until I finish though. Every now and then I need to go back and reword keyword meanings to distinguish similar kanji. Until I finish the book it's liable to change day-to-day, but if I have a script to export I could update it regularly. Carrying from your example, here's my card for 晶:
I've posted some of my deck over on the “One hanzi, one picture” thread.
Last edited by mafried (2011 January 26, 1:44 am)
mafried
Member
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 766
Most of my cards have multiple keywords, but to varying degrees. For example, the keywords I've selected for 引 are:
PULL; ATTRACT
普通話: QUOTE, CITE
日本語: PRICE REDUCTION
It has the keyword meanings PULL and ATTRACT (related, but subtly different), and these meanings are common to both Japanese and Chinese. These are separate keywords as they are separated by a semicolon. In Chinese it also has the meaning QUOTE or CITE, but in this case I've separated them by a comma because I'm using multiple English keywords to clarify the single intended meaning. Similarly in Japanese only it can have the meaning PRICE REDUCTION, which is a single “keyword” phrase.
I've done about 1500 cards to this level of detail, although I'm in the process of redoing RTK right now, and checking my work as I go. From my experience the benefit is marginal at best, and I wish I hadn't spent the time researching each kanji. The reality is that coming up with a vivid story requires choosing a single connotation anyway, and so when reviewing I usually focus on the single keyword which triggers the story. However if someone already did the work of putting it together, then yes I would say use it. Since I've gotten this far I figure I'll finish so others can benefit.
EDIT: The pictures are absolutely an improvement, however. For me in particular I physically lack a strong “mind's eye”, which makes imaginative memory difficult. The pictures more than compensate for this. Unfortunately they are also damn difficult to track down. Part of the reason my last attempt at the kanji failed was that I spent too much time finding good pictures (even building off the work by stoked), and did not make adequate progress to justify the time I was expending. This time through i'm only finding pictures for those few that I feel really need it. And so far it really has been just a handful.
Last edited by mafried (2011 January 26, 1:54 am)
Stephanie Alexandra wrote:
[...]Plump > Too (in Chinese this character is "tai", put before an adjective like "Too cold")
...and so on and so forth. I really HAVE to change these because otherwise I will have no idea what they mean. So when I see the word for "plump" in a story I have to say "Oh, it's 'Tai'"
Now that I'm studying RSH and Standard Chinese (Mandarin, 普通话) with Anki, one thing I did was to add to the question side of every card an audio file with the reading(s) for the characters — this way, while I'm reviewing, I see the keyword and hear the audio, which actually makes things much more interesting. The key here is that I've added to it, not replaced the keyword; I say this because, using your example, tài could also be any of these: 太 汰 态 泰 酞 钛 肽, and is one of the multiple readings for 胼 汏 溙 燤... (太 is a phonetic component in many of these characters), and not giving the exact answer for a card (or giving multiple ones and thinking "one of these is the right one") decreases the effectiveness of an SRS, even if you know at the moment that the alternate answers you gave are correct.
Last edited by gdaxeman (2011 January 25, 11:31 pm)
Stephanie Alexandra wrote:
I find there are a LOT of characters I do this with...simply because I already know them
Village > Town (Machi)
In > Center (Naka)
Bird > Chicken (Tori) ...
Chant > Song (ge in Chinese) ...
Springtime > Spring
Adding to what vonPeterhof said (and complementing my previous reply), here's why you have to be careful when doing these kind of substitutions:
0092 町 village
0208 村 town
0039 中 in
1740 央 center
1941 鳥 bird
1947 鶏 chicken
0021 唱 chant
0469 歌 song
1568 春 springtime
0133 泉 spring
What Heisig proposes is that, during reviews, you always have to give the same answer to a question (the question here being the keyword, and the answer the kanji/hanzi); this is in accordance with the recommended way of using an SRS in order to get the most out of it, as I've said previously. Because of this, when you change one keyword, you'll also need to change the conflicting ones — and not answer 泉 and 春 when you see the keyword 'spring', for example. Unless, of course, you don't care too much about the reviews.
Last edited by gdaxeman (2011 January 26, 12:25 am)
jmignot
Member
From: France
Registered: 2006-03-03
Posts: 205
How about using Jack Halpern's Kanji Learner's dictionary keywords?
Dis anybody try that?
I got the impression that his keywords are very carefully selected, with the extra benefit that the dictionary provides a logical and ordered connection between the keyword and its various uses in Japanese words, which would come as an advantage at the time of learning vocabulary. Of course, primitives would need to be defined separately.
It's too late for me now because I already learned 1000+ keywords from the French version of RTK — which are not strict translations of Heisig's BTW.
mafried
Member
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 766
Yes, that's what I originally used for my keywords. I switched to other sources only because looking up kanji in a paper dictionary was too slow (even with the SKIP method, which is still awesome, btw). They are not perfect, but better than any other source I've found. However one trip up is that Halpern has no problem giving two kanji exactly the same keyword meaning. And another trip up is that the keywords themselves are often boring, which Heisig's can be downright delightful at times. PLUMP for 太 is a perfect example. What Heisig did in these cases was choose a word that is more specific than the general meaning of the kanji, but more memorable because of it. Just something to be aware of if you choose to go with Halpern, or roll your own as I did.
jmignot
Member
From: France
Registered: 2006-03-03
Posts: 205
I fully agree with mafried. With some extra work, however, one could probably derive a decent list of memorable enough keywords based on Halpern's. "Looking up kanji in a paper dictionary" should not be too much of a problem once a list of kanji, keywords and Halpern's numbers has been collected in one file. I am not volunteering for this, though ;-)
Last edited by jmignot (2011 January 27, 1:37 am)
mafried
Member
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 766
Be careful though. I've done that for about 1,500 kanji, and here's what I've discovered through experience:
1) Often Heisig's keywords are cleverly chosen to encompass multiple meanings, although you may not be aware of it without some thought. 胆 is a perfect example--it means both gallbladder and intestinal fortitude. But think about the word “gall” in the phrase “you've got some gall to come back here.” Clever, eh? I wouldn't change that keyword.
2) Sometimes Heisig invents a word, but does so in a colorful manor. This makes it easier to remember and does not detract from the meaning of the kanji. Decameron is an adequate example (adequate because decameron IS an actual word, although the way he introduces it seems like an invention).
3) Dictionary sources handle idiomatic meaning in a way that is detrimental to Heisig learners. 胆 is still a good example. Take this hypothetical kanji dictionary entry for 胆: “1. GALLBLADDER; 2. INTESTINAL FORTITUDE.” Now you have two meanings to associate with character, and no help for doing so. Now look at this usage explanation that you probably won't find in the dictionary: “胆 means GALL as in GALLBLADDER, but it has taken on an idiomatic meaning of FORTITUDE, much like the English phrase 'You have some gall to come here after insulting me!'” Now all you have to do is add a challenge to a dual at DAYBREAK and you've got yourself a story. Isn't that easier? By going with the boring, but technically correct dictionary entry you'd have missed one bird with two stones when you could have bagged two with one.
4) Heisig's keywords are more specific than the general, encompassing meaning of the kanji. I understand the desire to “correct” Heisig's choices in these cases, but a generalized keyword meaning creates two difficulties: a) it overlaps with other related kanji, and b) it's VERY difficult to make stories that stick for generalized and abstract meanings.
5) Sometimes Heisig is flat-out wrong, and NEEDS to be corrected. 村 and 町 are the classic examples. I also felt FISH GUTS was a horrible choice for 乙, and there are no doubt numerous others. See Katsuo's list above.
What I would recommend to someone starting from scratch: buy a paper copy of the book, and using a pen and Katsuo's list above, replace Heisig's keywords for the ones he clearly got wrong/made poor choices. Then go about learning the kanji exactly has he recommends, following the instructions to a T. Forget about all this multiple-keyword/correct-meaning nonsense.
The only reason I do not do this myself is that I am not starting from scratch. I am so far off the beaten path already that it would be more work to start over than to continue and finish my way.
These days there's not much respect for elders, but I can hope that all the new people out there will listen to an old fart like me: Trust in Heisig; It works.
scuda
Member
From: カナダ
Registered: 2008-11-02
Posts: 60
I agree, we need to focus on the keywords that are clearly wrong, and stick with the rest.
After looking at the keywords this closely, I've gained more appreciation for the Heisig keywords.
BTW, my interpretation of the meaning of 胆 was 1. gallbladder 2. courage.. So the suggestion of 'intestinal fortitude' would potentially imply both (since gallbladder is sort of intestinal 
). But your gallbladder -> gall thing is also a great way to do it, so ultimately there's no point in changing that keyword.
