Cheesemaster64 wrote:

Why is it so fun to read a 50 page long argument? This shit should be published.

If people actually read it, it would be substantially shorter.^^

I'm pretty sure there used to be a thread about sentences / going monolingual, but I couldn't find it (；´Д｀)
As you were just talking about pretty much the same thing, I'm going to ask for help/opinions here and hope someone is willing to answer.

I've recently started to do sentences. Well, I've finished KO 2001 book 1 and 2 quite a while ago, but I didn't really consider that as "sentences" as I didn't pick those by myself.

I've started a new deck about a week ago adding sentences from basically 2 sources (at the moment):
1) 例文で学ぶ漢字と言葉 (this book is in Japanese only and concentrates on 2kyuu kanji compounds - offering various example sentences)
2) きみにしか聞こえない「乙一」: a very cute and interesting novel I'm currently reading

That new deck has been monolingual from the start, but I have a few problems which is why I decided to ask for your help.

I mainly use Sanseido and Yahoo as monolingual dictionaries.
I often don't understand the explanation given there and I always add the translation of the word as well (but I hide it, so I can't see it unless I highlight it).
I just passed a 2kyuu mock test, so do you think it's still too early for me to go monolingual???
Is there anything I can do about not understanding definitions?
What I do is sometimes add the readings and meanings of the words in the definition that I still don't understand, but that's a lot of work and I'm not sure if that's how it's meant to be?
In the end I always tend to highlight just the translation and go with that.

Second thing: what do you do if you can't find a definition for something, but a translation? Just use the translation then?

If you tell me now to just "throw away" sentences when I don't understand their definitions, then I freak out *g* Because it happens way too often!

To be more 具体的, here are samples of my current deck:





As you can see I sometimes don't really use the "+1" method. Sometimes there's way more than 1 new item to learn.


So .... any tips for me anyone? (Ｔ▽Ｔ)尸~~SOS!!

Considering finally going monolingual.. should I?

Last edited by woelpad (2009 October 01, 11:08 pm)

chochajin wrote:

Nobody any tips for me?
Could somebody at least help me find other threads when we were talking about sentences and going monolingual? I've tried, but couldn't find what I was looking for.

Thanks!

btw just glancing at that flash card.  that is wayyyyy too long for a sentence card.  Its like you write a book for every sentence.  you are putting too much effort into the creation phase.

not sure how you could fix that.  i haven't gone monolingual yet, but my sentences explanations are super short and to the point.

yeah i have been hoping that for a while too.  I imagine though that the people who have been doing monolingual for a while are cut off from anything in English until fluency, thus not looking at any English websites.

Thank you very much for your answer.
So what you did is that you added another definiton for each word in your original definition if you couldn't understand that word? That sounds quite horrible and I can see that answer card getting quite loo~ong?!

I think what you mentioned about "isolating" the words you don't know yet in a definition and find example sentences for those as well is a good idea.
I'm just not a big fan of "searching" for an example sentence containing a specific word because I'll never know if such a sentence is really a "native" sentence and thus correct, right?

chochajin wrote:

Thank you very much for your answer.
So what you did is that you added another definiton for each word in your original definition if you couldn't understand that word? That sounds quite horrible and I can see that answer card getting quite loo~ong?!

Yep. The answer does get long, and making cards is arduous for some time, but you quickly get out of needing to do this. Also, you usually won't have to read the entire answer every review; definitions are just there in case you do forget something.

I think what you mentioned about "isolating" the words you don't know yet in a definition and find example sentences for those as well is a good idea.
I'm just not a big fan of "searching" for an example sentence containing a specific word because I'll never know if such a sentence is really a "native" sentence and thus correct, right?

I'm also not a big fan of searching for an example sentence, but sanseido and yahoo usually have a decent example sentence or two right there (in the monodics, avoid the J-E dictionary's examples). When I first switched to monolingual, I used an elementary school dictionary which had easy examples, but I manually typing stuff in takes a lot of time.

Fillanzea wrote:

It's like, if you are asked to understand りんご, you don't think, "Oh, it's the usually round, red or yellow, edible fruit of a small tree, Malus sylvestris, of the rose family."

I should hope not! It's malus pumila, not malus sylvestris!

Edit: ok, I looked it up to double-check and it turns out that it's also known as malus sylvestris sieversii, so I guess thinking that would be fine.

~J

Last edited by woodwojr (2009 October 03, 7:01 pm)

Thanks for all the answers!

I'm still not sure if uberstuber's method would work for me as well.
Like some of you said the main point is to be able to fully understand the sentence. If a definition is just way to complicated, wouldn't it be better to just use a translation of that word (or an image (i.e. apple *g*)) instead?
I'm not even convinced yet that the monolingual-style has more benefits in the long run, so .....

Anyway I'll try to add definitions for each "definition word" I don't understand for a while and will see how it goes.

Thanks again.

I was thinking a "limiter" might work.  Unknown words in the target sentence get Japanese definitions; unknown words in Japanese definitions get English definitions.  I think Khatz suggests this in one of his "transition" posts.

Since this is for discussion of AJATT in general, I'd like to provide a bit of free advertising and say Khatz has "my first sentence pack" for sale now.  There are around 50 sentences available for free on his site already though, if you're looking for some.  I'm not sure how good the end product is...  He says "I have done the work for you" which I'm kind of wary of.  I think inputting the card helps you learn, which you are losing with "my first sentence pack."

...If you looked up the unknown words in the sentence and still don't understand it:
1) The sentence is probably too hard for you.
2) You should probably skip it and go on to the next sentence.
I find it easiest to learn new grammar with the smallest possible sentences.  A single word will suffice for verb or adjective forms.
I like anime intended for younger kids.  It seems to me that simpler sentences are used.  For sure simpler vocabulary are used.

"Hardcore" study?  Harvard Extension School (where I live) has a summer school Japanese program where you study five days a week, 8+ hours a day (the + is homework).  Cost is $2500.  It's intensive study, to be sure, but not too hardcore, I don't think.  It's 150 hours of instruction.  There are study programs like this in Japan - Heisig mentions one such program in the foreword of RTK1.

Self-study can be faster than directed-study.  However, if you're not very motivated, directed study can be a good thing.  In directed-study programs, you will learn Japanese (though slowly).  The goal of the directed study program is to get you to a point where you can learn more Japanese on your own using Japanese materials.  A directed study program alone will not be enough to achieve fluency - I think most teachers know that.

yudantaiteki wrote:

I don't agree with this at all; maybe if you're comparing a bad J->E dictionary with J-J, but a good J->E dictionary with example sentences is just as good as a J-J as showing word nuances, in my experience (which is to say, neither are that great).  I used the example of 達する on another thread: ある場所・位・程度に至る。及ぶ。とどく。  This definition completely fails at showing the nuance of 達する because it gives two other words as synonyms without saying how they differ.

That is nonsense, it's not the job of 達する's definition to define other similar words. If you look those up then you'll get the definitions:

達する：ある場所·位·程度に至る。及ぶ。とどく。
及ぶ　：ある動きやその影響が伝わっていって,ある離れた所にまで達する
届く　：送った物が目的地に達する。

If you want a direct comparison that is when you break out a 使い分け辞典. Those definitions are still a lot better than even 研究社中辞典, which simply defines them as:
達する：〈到達する〉 reach; arrive at [in]; get to [at]; gain
及ぶ　：〈達する〉 reach; amount 《to》; come [run] (up) 《to》; 〈わたる〉 《fml》 extend 《to, over》; range 《over》
届く　：〈達する〉 reach; get at (手が)

Sorry, I see no nuance in that at all. They also don't give definitions of the other similar words which are mentioned, which was your complaint about J-J.

Definitions which describe a word are better in every case than a simple list of rough English equivalents. That isn't to say that J-E dictionaries are useless. Beginners can't get the benefits of J-J due to their language ability, and J-E dictionaries are useful when translating. I wouldn't recommend using J-J if you have to puzzle out the definitions, but if you can understand the definitions somewhat easily then there is no reason not to use them.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 October 05, 11:42 pm)

Most je dictionaries are made for Japanese speakers, that is why they aren't good for nuance. The intended user already knows the Japanese word and just wants to know how to say it in English. je dictionaries made for English speakers are even worse because the target market is the beginner level casual learner. As je dictionaries go genius isn't even a very good one compared to kenkyuusha or progressive. The definitions that I pasted (from daijirin) make it much easier to understand the nuance IMO.

Of course if one doesn't understand the definitions it's a moot point. Unlike what the ajatt guy apparently recommends I don't think it's a good idea For beginners to laboriously decode a dictionary to figure out what 空 means.

Resurrection!

Necroposting and stirring the pot a bit with the following link that came on my google reader feed.

http://v10japan.com/2010/09/17/a-review-of-ajatt/

I've not been following AJATT blog for a while, but I didn't find the critique here well founded. It did remind me that many people tend to use the term AJATT to encompass many concepts, techniques and ideas. In addition, I'm reminded of how we were all wondering about the study history of Khatzumoto going solely off his blog posts.

PS: Still all for the idea of getting as much enjoyable and (hopefully) comprehensible Japanese as you can into your day.

Last edited by Nukemarine (2010 September 17, 7:22 pm)