I put a big expository on AJATT at the end of this post.

@Dragg

(to add onto Suffah's post) Do they actively look up new words they hear and try to learn them? I'm basically wondering, do they do anything to try to increase their understanding?

I also don't agree with Khatz's strict opposition of classes. At least, it depends on the class. I'm a Japanese major. I consider classes a bonus to my study. I go for an hour M-F and I learn some grammar typically. I don't see it as a huge boost to my studying, but there's no way it is hurting it also.

My beef with classes is that they give the illusion of doing something well. I got a 98% in my Japanese class last term. In my opinion, I still suck at Japanese and have a long way to go. When I started language classes I was content enough learning the material they gave me and practicing it a little. I figured if I keep taking these classes and get As all the way through 4th year then surely I will become fluent! Oops, wrong.

@bananarama
It is pretty hard to determine what he means by "fluent". I don't think he was near native level in 18 months. I guess it could be done, but I don't think it can be if someone has school, friends, a significant other, etc. In a language like Japanese, I think it's even harder to say exactly too what is "fluent" and "near-native". Let's face it: some Japanese can read better than other Japanese; they simply know more kanji/readings. What kind of standard do we use? What is average for a Japanese person? In the end though, I don't think your worries discredit the method. It sounds like the common argument against Heisig ("Heisig doesn't help you master the kanji! You can't read them! What a worthless book!). It definitely is a curious matter though.


WARNING, LONG:

If you look at the core of AJATT, I fully believe that it doesn't contradict itself and that it has value.

AJATT is not providing a solution that will make you fluent in languages. AJATT provides inspiration and methods for its readers to implement in their own study. It assumes that its readers' goal is fluency and tries to give advice to get them there.

The core, I believe, is itself the motto: "All Japanese All The Time". The more you do Japanese, the better you will get. You should be listening to material all the time, doing something, anything, in Japanese etc. It also maintains that whatever you are doing should be fun; in essence, learning the language should be fun.

However, this does not translate to saying that you shouldn't be studying the language.  It's possible to be immersed, but not studying. I think everyone is aware of the typical anime geek who has heard countless hours of Japanese audio (likely while reading English subtitles) but knows very little. They immerse themselves, but they don't study. Conversely, it's possible to study, but not immerse yourself. This is a common problem as well. If anyone has taken university Japanese language courses, I am sure they know what I am talking about.

Neither work well. However, immerse yourself and study, and you'll find yourself able to improve greatly. Essentially, you're taking a trip to Japan, but in your room. This is what is stressed on the site. The studying is in the work of learning new words, doing things like RtK, and keeping up with some sort of SRS.

So, you still have to study despite the fact that you should always be having fun. As Dragg brought up, doesn't this seem like a contradiction of some sort? You should be doing what is fun, but you should also be studying?

It's not a contradiction. It's more a clarification of goals and proof that one really wants to attain fluency (remember, the site is aimed for people who's goal is to become fluent). It may seem like a cop out, but basically, to me it's saying, if studying the language isn't fun, you shouldn't be planning on getting fluent. If you just want to watch anime and if you don't want to go and actually look up any of those words, use them, and learn them, then you have no need to be fluent and you'll probably have a hard time getting there.

Fun is stressed because it reinforces the immersion. If you're bored all the time, you'll start doing stuff in your native language. If you're having fun in whatever you're doing in Japanese, you're likely to keep that up.

What is the value in AJATT? Besides a huge a enthusiasm boost to go and learn Japanese, I think if people read it they will question just what they are doing learning Japanese. I wanted (want) to get really good at Japanese, and when I read it, it made me realize that my way of studying won't help me get there quickly. It also gave me ways to utilize my time so that helped me study Japanese. It also helped push me into Heisig (whether or not you agree with Khatz, it's good to have such a strong advocate of Heisig in the middle of the so many negative opinions of Heisig on the internet).

I haven't been listening to Japanese 24 hours a day since I read AJATT. I've put good efforts into it though and do listen often. I know my ability has increased because of that. Like I said above also, it's also helped me shape my studying. It helped me come to the realization that if I want to become fluent, it's going to take myself playing an active role in always making that a reality.

So to sum up, I don't think AJATT contradicts itself or makes false promises. The idea that you should be having fun but also doing "work" isn't really contradictory because if don't find any joy in the "work" done along with immersion fluency probably is not a good goal for you to begin with. The method doesn't say you should never speak Japanese. The method does not guarantee fluency after putting 10,000 sentences in your SRS. It doesn't say this is the only way to become fluent. It doesn't say you should be 24/7 listening to Japanese but that it's ok to not be working towards understanding the Japanese. It doesn't say you have to make your SRS entries look like Khatz's.

It stresses to do "All Japanese All The Time" while learning new things everyday and reinforcing the knowledge you already gained. It reminds people, if you want to get fluent, you should be doing as much Japanese as you can.

Last edited by sutebun (2008 April 03, 8:46 pm)

sutebun wrote:

@bananarama
It is pretty hard to determine what he means by "fluent". I don't think he was near native level in 18 months. I guess it could be done, but I don't think it can be if someone has school, friends, a significant other, etc. In a language like Japanese, I think it's even harder to say exactly too what is "fluent" and "near-native". Let's face it: some Japanese can read better than other Japanese; they simply know more kanji/readings. What kind of standard do we use? What is average for a Japanese person?

All true enough. Again, it would be nice if he would, as clearly as possible, detail what he could and couldn't do after 18 months.

sutebun wrote:

In the end though, I don't think your worries discredit the method. It sounds like the common argument against Heisig ("Heisig doesn't help you master the kanji! You can't read them! What a worthless book!). It definitely is a curious matter though.

No they don't discredit the method. I don't see the connection between what I'm saying and that argument against Heisig. I'm saying that the method (as I understand it) doesn't match up with the claimed result (as I understand it). The problem could be in my understanding. It'd be easy enough to clarify.

sutebun wrote:

My beef with classes is that they give the illusion of doing something well. I got a 98% in my Japanese class last term. In my opinion, I still suck at Japanese and have a long way to go. When I started language classes I was content enough learning the material they gave me and practicing it a little. I figured if I keep taking these classes and get As all the way through 4th year then surely I will become fluent! Oops, wrong.

Yeah, that was pretty much my experience with classes as well. I did 6 semesters' worth, and I don't feel like I learned nearly as much as I've learned on my own.

Don't get me wrong-- classes have their use, but they're not the end-all, be-all that I used to think they were. They can offer a nice framework to do Other Stuff around, and can be a nice place to sort of ease into the language... but if you simply rely on classes to gain any sort of fluency, you're in for a very nasty surprise.

@sutebun
Nice summary. I don't have the patience to even try to explain it that well.

When I first found out about RTK/Heisig and AJATT, I will admit to being very skeptical. But I actually took the time to drop the donut and actually do the work and try it. I found that RTK was a brilliant way of tackling the problem of kanji for me. It also exposed the deficiencies of the system used to try to teach me kanji before. (At their pace, I would have mastered kanji 25 minutes before my 80th birthday... perhaps... and I still would have forgotten half of them.)

AJATT was another small revelation for me. I didn't drink the Kool-Aid. I didn't buy a matching jogging suit and sneakers. I didn't throw out all of my English-language media, either. BUT it gave me tools and approaches to making self-study even more efficient than in-class study, and it appealed to the way I prefer to learn anyway. Primarily the concepts of immersion and spaced repetition systems using vocabulary and grammar in context made the biggest impression.

Am I fluent? No.
Do I want to be? Yes.
Was I fluent when I took classes? No.
Am I better at Japanese than I was before? Yes. Much better.
Am I learning faster? Yes.
Faster than when I took classes? Yes.
Am I more efficient in how I use my study time? Yes.
Is it easy? Hell, no. You don't make progress unless you put effort into it. That's true of anything in life.
Is it easier than classes? Yes and no. Yes, it's easier in some ways, but no, it's harder in others. Nobody is there to spoon-feed me. I have to make up my own curriculum as I go along.
Can I cut out all of the useless crap they taught me in classes? YES. I'm never going to be a foreign exchange student, and I will never ask someone "What's your major?" ever again.
Can I tailor my learning needs to what I need to learn? Yes.
Could I do that in classes? No. They had to balance my needs with the needs of 29 other people, the department's requirements, and then they were handcuffed by the textbooks as well.

Use it, don't use it. You won't know until you try, but keep this in mind-- you're tackling one of the hardest languages for native English speakers to learn. It's not like picking up Spanish, French, or German. It has a high dropout rate, and it will try to make you quit. You need every single trick and tool you can put your hands on. Ignoring a whole set of tools simply because you don't like the guy, or don't believe him is up to you, but when you're fighting a monster, you should never throw away an extra weapon someone offers you simply because you don't believe it will work without even firing it once.

sutebun,
I like your comment about AJATT. The guy has a concept, an interesting point of view about language learning. That's his true power. Not all the little rules, methods and walkthroughs. It's the approach.

rich_f,

Is it easy? Hell, no. You don't make progress unless you put effort into it. That's true of anything in life.

I think you should add another Q/A after this one: Is it more fun? (I'd say "Hell, yes")

dragg,
Even though you say that one can do output as much as he wants and correct his own mistakes later, I don't think that's so easy.
The fact is that when one starts getting used to speaking a language, he inevitably stops analyzing it, and just goes on autopilot-mode. I know foreigners who have lived in my country for years and years, communicating and living just fine, but who are still terrible at grammar and pronunciation.

Ryuujin27 wrote:

dragg,
Even though you say that one can do output as much as he wants and correct his own mistakes later, I don't think that's so easy.
The fact is that when one starts getting used to speaking a language, he inevitably stops analyzing it, and just goes on autopilot-mode. I know foreigners who have lived in my country for years and years, communicating and living just fine, but who are still terrible at grammar and pronunciation.

To add a note to that:

This is probably because no one corrects them when the speak incorrectly.

So, as advice for people who plan to learn a lot of Japanese while studying abroad or just going to live there for a while:

1) You need to actively seek Japanese friends

2) You need to tell them to correct you... multiple times

They will be very reluctant to do so. I am lucky to have, hmm, very "outspoken" Japanese friends here in the US, so for them to correct me isn't much of a problem.

These are good points. Lots of people would prefer to do the polite thing, and tell you how well you are speaking rather than point out every single error you make. 

Another reason for the dreaded auto-pilot mode is the achievement of being able to "get by" in a language.  Some people think they are too old to learn a new language perfectly or that they have already mastered it to the extent of what a foreigner is reasonably capable of.

I don't think losing a self-analytical mindset is inevitable, but I do think its a temptation that many can succumb to at any stage of the game.

Which is exactly why you do not get too creative with a language without someone there who is fluent or can correct you.

I'd say for self-study audio input is essential.

Yesterday I wanted to write an email in Japanese. I was a bit tired and my brain just wouldn't do it. I realized it's been two weeks I haven't been listening to some Japanese audio on the iPod. So I listened to some today and the email was a lot easier to do. Still using alc.co.jp but hey ^_^   If only to warm up your brain to working in Japanese... audio is essential imho. Of course if you live in Japan or have some good Japanese friends you see often, you can skip the pricey Pimsleur

@Dragg

A lot of it is dependent on just how much Japanese you've had. (Sorry if I missed that in a previous post. This thread is getting a bit long.)

It took a lot of listening to a lot of Japanese for me to start to get an ear for it. If you can find slowed-down Japanese, then that would help you a lot. (Just make sure it's by native speakers.) "Fun" is a relative term at this point. Useful is more important than fun if you're having trouble understanding it. To me, finding a useful source of understandable Japanese was more important than it being fun at first. Since I've started to get an ear for the language, I've had more opportunities to watch things that are entertaining instead of simply being instructional.

But I still have bad days where I have problems hearing things. And the ability to listen to things varies a lot on the content, too.

I know some people find the Japanesepod101.com podcasts annoying (I don't), but they do a good job of presenting relatively easy to understand dialogues in a useful way. Yes, there's a lot of English in these podcasts, and yes, the subject matter is often very hokey, but there are a lot of useful phrases in it.

Their approach is usually dialogue done at normal speed, then slowed down, then with English translations. The slowed down part is what's going to be useful for folks who don't have a lot of listening experience. Just buzz through the chit-chat if you can.

Also, their intermediate lessons have a LOT less English in them, which is very very useful, once you have an ear for it.

Have you checked out the list of podcast sources? There might be something useful there. You might also try asking at a local library or university for a good source for Japanese language audio you can listen to. If all else fails, go on the internet and find some children's programs in Japanese. They won't go rocket fast in those, anyway, and the vocab/grammar will be pretty simple.

I seem to recall there being software out there that will slow down spoken words in sound files without distorting them, but I can't think of any offhand. That might work as well.

ファブリス wrote:

I'd say for self-study audio input is essential.

Yesterday I wanted to write an email in Japanese. I was a bit tired and my brain just wouldn't do it. I realized it's been two weeks I haven't been listening to some Japanese audio on the iPod. So I listened to some today and the email was a lot easier to do. Still using alc.co.jp but hey ^_^   If only to warm up your brain to working in Japanese... audio is essential imho. Of course if you live in Japan or have some good Japanese friends you see often, you can skip the pricey Pimsleur

well beware of alc.co.jp ....
I have been using it a lot for a while .... And then I showed it to one my japanese teachers (japanese of course) and it turned out that a lot of the sentences are "hen" . I think the pattern (verb+ noun) are safe but the sentences extracted from online chat etc.... involves to be cautious.

Last edited by ghinzdra (2008 April 04, 8:12 pm)

danieldesu wrote:

...Khatz, who, admittedly, is probably is an exceptional language learner...

IIRC, he grew up in Kenya and already knew two languages, which is an advantage he had over many of us.

Before ericharr.com, I could not run further than 3 miles, much less the marathon I did 6 months later.

Before www.crossfit.com, I could not pick up 400 pounds off the ground, do handstand push-ups, or 50 pull ups. Now I can.

Before kanji.koohii.com, I could not memorize 2000 kanji writings

Before alljapaneseallthetime.com, I could not put that kanji into written and reading use.

At no time did I consider all the advantages the author's did or did not have at the skills I gained. I only looked at the skills I gained. Granted, I've always taken the idea of putting the message before the character of the person that sends the message.  YMMV.

danieldesu wrote:

My post has two parts:

Part One: Why AJATT was so useful to me

The most useful thing about his site was that he basically showed me that I wasn't actually learning Japanese at all, I was reading chapters in Genki, and thinking that I was learning Japanese, but I really wasn't.  All I was doing was reading English explanations of Japanese.  Once I went to his site, I realized that I had never really tried to read REAL Japanese, that is, an entire website, short story, blog, or even really tried to understand a whole Japanese sentence that wasn't already spoon fed to me.  WHOOPS!

Part Two: Could he have been fluent in 18 months living in Utah?

YES!!!!  推理してみましょう。He says he used an RTK-like method to learn the kanji, but he picked his own keywords.  This probably means he had a better grasp on the kanji than most RTK graduates.  He then immediately started digesting real Japanese (entire sentences, books, mangas, tv show scripts, documents, etc.), when most people would have been working their way through Genki, reading lots of English.  This could be attributed to his having bigger guts than most learners who continually have panic attacks when their entire computer screen is filled with Japanese (me).  Finally, he did this 24/7.  To me, that means that he acted like he was in Japan.  In Japan, you are not constantly bombarded with Japanese audio 24/7 (there is quiet time), but everything you do, you do in Japanese.  This means reading, watching movies, talking to people, writing diaries, etc.  I have known people who lived in Japan for 2 years and pretty much became fluent, so why couldn't Khatz, who, admittedly, is probably is an exceptional language learner, do it in 18 months?

I also know a person who has lived in Japan and became relatively fluent in a short time.   
Going to Japan and living with a host family is the best thing you could ever do as long as you are willing to commit yourself to speaking as much Japanese as possible.  If AJATT was based around quality human-to-human interaction in Japan, rather than "fun" multimedia such as video games and comic books, then I would believe 100 percent that it could work.  As its name suggests, AJATT has an emphasis on amount of time spent.  However I don't think the amount of time is nearly as important as the quality of resources.  In fact, I think less may very well be more.   

Living in Japan is great because it is a form of structured learning with lots of opportunities for quality interactions involving both input AND output.  The reason that I call it structured is because everyone you meet will adapt to your current level of speech.  If they see you struggling, they will speak very basically and avoid complicated words or phrases.  Plus, you will focus instinctually on the most common vocabulary needed for fluency, because you will need to use them for daily survival.

Unfortunately, these types of interactions are very difficult to come by outside of Japan.  This is one reason that I recommend getting the best classes and textbooks you can.  They are very structured and seek to prioritize learning by focusing on common words and concepts first, and the good ones also focus on output as well.  Furthermore, textbooks are usually broken down into lessons.  Isnt it much less overwhelming for most people to do a chapter or two a day rather than maniacally studying Japanese as much as they can per day till they break down? 

I'm not saying that the sentence method will fail as a path to fluency, but you should be very picky about what you are picking and why you are picking them.  I haven't seen the dictionaries that Khatzu recommends, but in general, i strongly disagree with mining sentences from the news, dictionaries, comic books, or video games unless you are an advanced learner.  These have not been arranged for the sake of learning effiency, and you will end up with a lot of obscure terms that are not a good use of your time.  And by "obscure", I mean words that might seem simple in English like " dinosaur", or "asteroid".  They are not "bad words" per se, but you are unlikely to see them often enough to serve as reenforcement within several different contexts.  Even with support from an SRS, I still think it is going to be hard to recognize these types of words, because even with a supporting sentence, I still believe that they will lack the memorable context that comes with actually using the word as "output" in a reality based scenario.

Passive listening from streaming audio or video have similar problems because they are inherently non-structured unless they are specifically designed for learners.  To this end, I agree that something ongoing, but repeatable like Japanpod101 is probably for the best as far as listening goes.  I still believe that the streaming/ random topic nature of  TV and radio broadcasts make them all but a waste of time for most beginners/intermediates.

P.S.  One of the reasons that foreign learners studying in Japan have the potential for accelerated fluency is because they aren't as likely to be caught up in their "silent period".  They will learn more by going out in public and talking from DAY 1 of their trip. Even if it is just reading out loud from some crappy traveler's phrasebook, they will learn exponentially more outside rather than watching Japanese TV inside like some kind of hermit.

Last edited by Dragg (2008 April 07, 3:35 pm)

@Dragg

Not everyone can go live in Japan for a year or two to help their Japanese learning.  Also not everyone can go to quality classes either.  A lot of people study on their own, and they are lucky if they even have someone to practice with from time to time. 

AJATT is a bunch of ideas for how to replace the lack of real immersion with DIY immersion for self study.  And even for people who are living in Japan, AJATT sends a message that they have to study; living in Japan doesn't mean you will get good at Japanese like magic. Personally I think it has some very good ideas, and since I started using those ideas my Japanese improved a lot in a short time.

If you pay attention, Khatzumoto advises to start with basics and build up.  Choosing your own sentences may not be structured, but on the other hand you should only be picking sentences that "You want to know right now!".  In other words he suggests that you should not be learning everything you come across; you should not be learning too obsucre stuff; you learn stuff that you can put in a context that interests you right away.

By comparison, a course or a textbook may be structured, but it may have little relevance to you.  You may never be a foreign exchange student... so learning the names of subjects in school, and "senmon wa nan desu ka" may be pretty useless to you.

You seem to have an over idealistic view of learning Japanese in Japan.  I've been to Japan many times, sometimes as long as 3 months.  It is not a magic cure for language learning.  First of all, it is not so easy to kickstart your Japanese immersed in Japan.  If you don't have at least a basic to intermediate level of Japanese, I don't think you can make fast progress just being immersed, unless someone explains a lot to you.

Most people will not structure their Japanese to help you learn.  Just because someone is native Japanese, doesn't mean they know how to teach or help someone learn Japanese in the best way.  Being a native speaker doesn't make you a good teacher, any more than being alive makes you good at biology.  Whenever I asked most Japanese people to explain why something was said the way it was, the most common answers were "I don't know" or "It just is like that."

WRTT textbooks, I think that they can be good for their exercises, perhaps especially for improving output early on.  However from my own experience, I think learning by sentences, you can improve your level of reading comprehension faster than any textbook.  Also it is not as hard as you might think to turn what you learn through input into output.  Try it and see.

Textbooks are also too polite and contrived.  People don't talk like that.  The people in Japan who may be friendly and try to talk to you a lot in Japanese may do so in casual speech.  At least that was my experience.  So after learning only from textbooks, it was quite hard to understand even basic stuff.  Real daily sentences are nothing like textbooks.

Last edited by vosmiura (2008 April 07, 4:34 pm)