vinniram wrote:

1) 飲まなかったんだ。
2) 飲むんじゃなかった。

I'm not sure what comparison you're trying to draw between these two sentences.  The second one means "[I/you/etc.] shouldn't have drank [that, etc].", which has nothing to do with the first sentence.

@jimmyseal

well Tae kim presents those two sentence structures in a way which implied that they mean the same thing, at least to me.

@ Kazelee

thanks for that page. It's still going over my head, but I feel I now have a vague idea. This is the trickiest thing I've learned in Nihongo so far, so that page will help .

vinniram wrote:

@jimmyseal

well Tae kim presents those two sentence structures in a way which implied that they mean the same thing, at least to me.

I guess Tae Kim is pretty good because so many people swear by it, but some of the stuff in his lessons is complete 出鱈目.  Aside from the first row in the second table (which is identical to the first row in the first table), the remaining rows are completely different in meaning from the usage of んだ that he's explaining.

could you direct me to a resource which will explain it properly?

To understand the explanatory のだ, just remember its other form, ので:

   「私の部屋は静かだ」→ My room is quiet.
   「私の部屋は静かなので勉強出きる」→ My room is quiet, so I can study.

    A:「勉強出きるの？」→ Can you study?
    B:「私の部屋は静かなんだ」→ My room is quiet.


   「勉強がたくさんある」→ I have a lot to study.
   「勉強がたくさんあるのでパーティに行かない」→ I have a lot to study, so I won't go the the party.

    A:「パーティに行かないの？」→ Won't you go to the party?
    B:「勉強がたくさんあるんだ」→ I have a lot to study.

The dialogue is not always symmetric like that, of course:

   「テレビを買った」 → I've bought a tv.
   「テレビを買ったので持っている」 → I've bought a tv, so now I have one.

    A:「テレビ持ってないじゃない？」→ You don't have a tv, do you?
    B:「買ったんだ」→ I've bought one.

It becomes even more clear if you include the parts that have been dropped [as you'll see, what they drop is the actual answer to the question!]:

    A:「勉強出きるの？」→ Can you study?
    B:「私の部屋は静かなので勉強出きる」→ Yes. My room is quiet.

    A:「パーティに行かないの？」→ Won't you go to the party?
    B:「勉強がたくさんあるのでパーティに行かない」→ No. I have a lot to study.

    A:「テレビ持ってないじゃない？」→ You don't have a tv, do you?
    B:「買ったのでテレビ持ってるよ」→ I do. I've bought one.

There are other のだ's though, which cannot be explained this way. The 'should' のだ:

    「男なら戦うのだ」→ [You] should fight if [you] are a man.
    「飲むのではなかった」 → Drinking was not the right thing to do.
    「何が何でも目標を達成するのだ」 → [We] should reach your goals no matter what.

The emphatic のだ:

    「ひどいんだよ！」→ [You] are terrible!
    「何をしてるんだ！」→ What the hell are you doing!
    「これは命令なんだ！」→ This is an order!

And probably many others.

edit: minor changes

Last edited by iSoron (2010 July 27, 3:57 pm)

The majority of the time, you do not conjugate the のだ part.  I honestly don't think #2 is worth worrying about at the stage where you're still struggling with the basic meaning and usage of the explanatory のだ.

However, on the occasions when you see んじゃない or んじゃなかった it typically serves as a rather strong statement that something shouldn't be done (or shouldn't have been done, in the case of the past form).  This is related to the occasional use of のだ to express a strongly worded command.

飲まなかったんだ - It's the case that I didn't drink/It's because I didn't drink/etc
飲むんじゃなかった - I shouldn't have drank.

But I really do feel that these usages are more advanced, and it's better to get acquainted with the basic use of のだ before worrying about these.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 July 27, 5:30 pm)

vinniram wrote:

[...] the uses of the のだ particle.

Just nitpicking a bit, 「のだ」 is not a particle; you can conjugate it. The distinction is not as useless as it sounds: it reminds us that all the conjugations 「のだ」「ので」「のだろう」「のなら」「のだった」 must be closely related somehow.

Last edited by iSoron (2010 July 27, 6:49 pm)

Vinniram, if you're still curious about the "should" use, it might help to read about the ～べきだ "should".  There are a few threads with recommended grammar books and sites. In the meantime, you could take a look at ALC "shouldn't have" examples for some examples of both べきではなかった　and  んじゃなかった.

Don't forget that grammar often doesn't fit into neat categories and there are several different ways to express similar things. For eg, different ways to express "should"  include のだ、べきだ、ことだ、ものだ、はずだ. You can always revisit the confusing stuff later.

A Japanese grammar site has a little table showing different nuances of some "should" patterns (stronger suggestion to the right). Maybe you've already learned the middle column?

                                  value judgment         ------------>         command
                                     expression                                           expression

advice/obligation      　　  することだ　　　　　 　しなければならない　　　　　するんだ
advice/prohibition 　　　　　しないことだ　　　　 　してはいけない　　　　　　するんじゃない
not necessary　　　　　　　　することはない　　　　しなくてもいい

(I wouldn't worry about learning the こと　column now - I included it b/c  Kapalama had offered a similar explanation in the other thread.)

You're absolutely right.

The best way to explain のだ in English, albeit still rather clumsy and awkward is:

"it is that", with "it" being の. In question form this would change to "is it that x?"

Think of it this way. You're reading a book in a cafe. Someone walks up to you and asks 面白いですか? Which is simply "is it a good book?" and has no other nuance than that. Simple. Basic. Easy.

However, picture this situation. You are in a cafe reading a really funny book. You start laughing out loud and someone walks up to you and asks 面白いのですか？ The fact that they inserted の in there is because of completely different circumstances than the situation before. Instead of asking you "is it interesting?" they are actually asking "is the reason that you are laughing or seemingly enjoying this book because it is a good book?" Or rather (using my "it is that" example from before): "is it (the fact that you are laughing and seem to be enjoying yourself) that it is a good book?"

Consider this example. You are at work and the boss walks up to you wanting to confirm something. The boss says:

vinniramさん、確認なんだけど

(if you don't know by now ん is the informal version of の when used in this sense, and when used with a noun or non-い adjective you need to predicate it with な, just like な adjectives)

So when your boss says 確認なんだけど he is saying "it's that I want to confirm something", or rather "it (the reason I am standing here, right now, in front of you, looking like I want to ask you something) is that I want to confirm something".

So as you can see の in this sense (or ん when used casually with verbs or い-adjectives, or なの/なん when used with nouns or non-い adjectives) is used when you want to show that what you have just said is a reason for something. Another example:

Friend: where have all the beers gone????
You: umm...eeerrr...飲んだんだ
(i.e. the reason you are so shocked by the fact that all the beers have disappeared is that I have drunk them)

Hope this helps!

Last edited by bucko (2010 July 28, 4:52 am)

I've been trying to understand the idea of the explanatory んだ for a long time, seriously.

But now I get it:

iSoron wrote:

To understand the explanatory のだ, just remember its other form, ので:

   「私の部屋は静かだ」→ My room is quiet.
   「私の部屋は静かなので勉強出きる」→ My room is quiet, so I can study.

    A:「勉強出きるの？」→ Can you study?
    B:「私の部屋は静かなんだ」→ My room is quiet.


   「勉強がたくさんある」→ I have a lot to study.
   「勉強がたくさんあるのでパーティに行かない」→ I have a lot to study, so I won't go the the party.

    A:「パーティに行かないの？」→ Won't you go to the party?
    B:「勉強がたくさんあるんだ」→ I have a lot to study.

The dialogue is not always symmetric like that, of course:

   「テレビを買った」 → I've bought a tv.
   「テレビを買ったので持っている」 → I've bought a tv, so now I have one.

    A:「テレビ持ってないじゃない？」→ You don't have a tv, do you?
    B:「買ったんだ」→ I've bought one.

It becomes even more clear if you include the parts that have been dropped [as you'll see, what they drop is the actual answer to the question!]:

    A:「勉強出きるの？」→ Can you study?
    B:「私の部屋は静かなので勉強出きる」→ Yes. My room is quiet.

    A:「パーティに行かないの？」→ Won't you go to the party?
    B:「勉強がたくさんあるのでパーティに行かない」→ No. I have a lot to study.

    A:「テレビ持ってないじゃない？」→ You don't have a tv, do you?
    B:「買ったのでテレビ持ってるよ」→ I do. I've bought one.

There are other のだ's though, which cannot be explained this way. The 'should' のだ:

    「男なら戦うのだ」→ [You] should fight if [you] are a man.
    「飲むのではなかった」 → Drinking was not the right thing to do.
    「何が何でも目標を達成するのだ」 → [We] should reach your goals no matter what.

The emphatic のだ:

    「ひどいんだよ！」→ [You] are terrible!
    「何をしてるんだ！」→ What the hell are you doing!
    「これは命令なんだ！」→ This is an order!

And probably many others.

Why are people still coming up with clumsy metaphors or weird "it is that…" kind of fillers?.

Last edited by turvy (2012 August 21, 10:04 pm)

The thing is more like, I can see why it makes sense now. Neither DOBJG or ADOJP could do the job on me.

EDIT: Also I was misguided by native speakers who didn't have a clue about how to explain their own language.

Last edited by turvy (2012 August 21, 11:29 pm)