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Japanese language advice - different "how"s
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Hey all,
I'm a newbie here, who joined because you guys seem way nicer than other people on other Japanese forums I've tried out.
I am tutoring some students in the hopes that they can test into a higher level Japanese language class at my college, but I'm running across a lot of questions about Japanese grammar that I can't find anywhere.
I even asked my native Japanese instructor but she got confused by it too.
So I was wondering if you all could help me out in figuring this out.
Basically, there are many forms of the English word "how". I'm running into three that are getting confusing:
1: How (much, often, etc) ex: "How awful was the food?"
2: How (to do, what method, what way) ex: "How (what way) should I cook this?"
3: How (that, the subject of) "We discussed how the Earth revolved around the sun"
("We discussed {the subject of} the Earth revolving around the sun")
("We discussed {that} the Earth revolves around the sun")
As far as I can tell, #1 would be "どんなに" & #2 is "どのように". But it's #3 that is giving me problems.
For #3, I have gotten various answers. I was thinking 方、some said こと（事）, but overall none of the answers *feel* right.
Anyone up to the challenge of helping me figure out the way to say this in Japanese?
Last edited by Ukchana (2010 July 07, 12:33 pm)
Ukchana wrote:
1: How (much, often, etc) ex: "How awful was the food?"
I wish I could remember, because I had a discussion with several native speakers a little while ago about this and they both agreed that どんなにまずい？ and どれほどまずい? are both less-than-ideal, but I forget what their good suggestion was.
2: How (to do, what method, what way) ex: "How (what way) should I cook this?"
どのように or どうやって, or just どう. My instinct is どうやって作るの? but I'm not a native speaker.
3: How (that, the subject of) "We discussed how the Earth revolved around the sun"
("We discussed {the subject of} the Earth revolving around the sun")
("We discussed {that} the Earth revolves around the sun")
ことについて (you can't use ほう because that means a choice between two alternatives)
Wow, your answers are so clear and concise, thanks so much!
It's been really difficult figuring out how to *think* the correct way with Japanese. Especially as I'm really not very advanced at all. >.>
Anyone else have some ideas? Even the native speakers didn't quite get the difference in English, which i think is the main problem. English doesn't make much sense IMO (after studying Japanese, which seems much more sensical to me)
So far though, it looks like こと is winning, as you're the 2nd person to tell me that one for that English equivalent. ^_^
地球が太陽のまわりに回っていることについて話し合った (or 議論した -- although to me "discuss" sounds a little strange here in English as well, if "discuss" is the verb I would prefer to see "We discussed *whether* the Earth revolves around the sun". At least in my speech, you cannot discuss "how the Earth revolves around the sun" unless you literally mean that you were having a discussion about the method by which the Earth revolves around the sun. If that is the case, then こと is wrong and it should be some other word, or better yet, a total recasting into 地球がどうやって太陽のまわりに回っているのかを議論した or something like that. )
You could only use 方 in certain contexts; if there was something that made it clear that you were contrasting that with the idea that the sun revolves around the Earth, then it would be possible, but in most cases it's going to be こと.
(EDIT: And I fully agree with pm215's next post.)
Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 July 07, 3:40 pm)
I tend to prefer to approach this sort of thing from the other direction. So rather than starting with "how do you say 'how' in Japanese?" which leads to the difficult question of
"how do you express all the things English 'how' does in Japanese?", you think about the Japanese expressions and what they mean and how they differ from other similar Japanese expressions. Then you don't have to worry about English grammar at all...
Well, unfortunately, pm215, I don't *know* all the Japanese expressions, which makes that somewhat impossible, lol.
Like I said, I'm not at all advanced yet, and so there are *many* things that I don't know yet about Japanese grammar. So reverse-engineering it would be next to impossible.
Also, I don't have a great deal of time to look up every single grammatical expression in Japanese and then translate it into English - and I don't always know which specific ones to look up in Japanese *because* I haven't learned enough yet. (it's like the chicken and the egg - which comes first?)
As to the verb "discuss" it was just an example of a way to use that version of "how". The verb isn't important, what is, is the meaning of "how" as in "that, the topic of" etc. It's neither "whether" it does something, nor is it "the method" as I stated above.
(And to discuss something is not necessarily to argue about it, it can also be to talk about it. Webster's Definitions: a: to investigate by reasoning or argument b: to present in detail for examination or consideration <discussed plans for the party> c: to talk about)
I think that こと is the best way to say this.
This is the second time I've run into people telling me I should just learn every expression in Japanese in order to know how to translate into Japanese, but I really don't understand how telling me this is going to help.
I'm not really worried about English grammar, but I know that - being a newbie teaching a newbie - both me and my student are going to run into areas where we don't *know* the Japanese well enough to *know* what it is in English.
If you didn't *know* every Japanese expression that existed, how would *you* go about learning how to translate English into Japanese? Because if there's a good method, I'd really like to hear it. I've already spent over half of my summer making curriculum teaching and learning Japanese myself, so I'm pretty dedicated. (And I've taken 2 years of Japanese in College already.) I'm just not omniscient, lol.
Last edited by Ukchana (2010 July 07, 4:49 pm)
Ukchana wrote:
Well, unfortunately, pm215, I don't *know* all the Japanese expressions, which makes that somewhat impossible, lol.
But just about every Japanese course in existence introduces Japanese grammar and expressions, in an order which starts with simple basic stuff and works upwards. So no matter where you are on the beginner-advanced spectrum, there are things you know, and things you should probably be learning next. So どのように is fairly basic grammar, and ことについて is a bit more advanced, and most people will learn them separately. If your student is having trouble with the bit of the textbook that introduces どのように then what they need to know is "what does this mean?" "what sort of sentences can I put it in?", and so on. That it happens to be one of a set of ideas which in English we lump together under "how" is irrelevant, and talking about ことについて is just going to confuse and should be left until the student reaches that part of the textbook.
Also, I don't have a lot of time to look up every grammatical expression in Japanese and then translate it into English.
This is the second time I've run into people telling me I should just learn every expression in Japanese in order to know how to translate into Japanese, but I really don't understand how telling me this is going to help.
I get the feeling you have a misconception here; tell me if I'm wrong. Most people here aren't really interested in translating English into Japanese. What they want to do is learn to speak, read and understand Japanese. When you're doing that you don't think in English, translate in your head and say something in Japanese -- you just think in Japanese and say what you're thinking. That is actually a lot easier than translation, and in fact the reason why it is much easier is exactly that to do a good translation you need to have a solid grasp of all the target language's grammatical expressions and idioms so you can pick the one that best reflects what you're trying to translate. If you're just speaking Japanese then it doesn't matter that you don't necessarily know lots of grammar -- you just use what you do know to express your meaning as best you can.
So the reason people tell you that to translate into Japanese you should first learn Japanese is essentially because it's true. The only way I know is (1) become a fluent speaker of Japanese, ie know if not every Japanese expression a large range of them (2) think about what the English sentence is trying to say and then think about how you would express that idea in Japanese. Being able to translate into a foreign language is a very high level of foreign language skill (there's a reason why most English-to-Japanese translators are native Japanese speakers, and most Japanese-to-English translators are English speakers). Fortunately, it's also generally not a skill you need at all if what you want to do is have a conversation, read a book, watch a TV programme or even pass a test or exam...
I'm not really worried about English grammar, but I know that - being a newbie teaching a newbie - both me and my student are going to run into areas where we don't *know* the Japanese well enough to *know* what it is in English.
When you encounter a bit of Japanese grammar you don't know, you look it up in a textbook or a grammar dictionary, or ask here. None of this requires knowing what the Japanese equivalent of English grammar is...
[Edit: short version: I'm not saying "learn every expression in Japanese in order to know how to translate into Japanese", I'm saying "if you're interested in learning Japanese then trying to attack the problem by learning how to translate bits of English grammar into Japanese is a bad approach", which implies "you don't need to know how to translate into Japanese".]
Last edited by pm215 (2010 July 07, 4:58 pm)
Well, first I want to say I'm sorry if I sound upset, but I guess I kind of am. :-( I'm trying really hard to teach this girl (I want to become a Japanese teacher some day) and I feel like everywhere I go for help, the people either don't know the answer (like my native Japanese teacher) or they are telling me I should just *know* something instantly.
It's not anybody's fault, but I feel really frustrated and kind of ganged-up on. I can't understand what Japanese expression to use until I've been taught it, and I don't know enough Japanese yet to find it on my own. It's why I decided to ask people more advanced than me for help. :-(
The problem seems to be that I am *not* here just to learn Japanese, I'm also trying to *teach* someone else Japanese. We aren't using a textbook - my Japanese college class didn't use a textbook either (the teacher actually plagiarized from Tae Kim's site - but the new teacher isn't the same one, so no worries there).
Because I am teaching someone else, I have to make homework for her to do. Thus, I have to write sentences in English and have her translate into Japanese.
When I start writing sentences in English to translate to Japanese, I begin to realize what I myself *don't* know how to say in Japanese. (Also, of course, I have to remember what I know but haven't *taught* her yet, so I'm not asking her to say something in Japanese that she wouldn't know) It's really difficult; lots of work, but I enjoy it. Still, the problem is I am supposed to be teaching her what our Japanese 3&4 class were taught. And some of what we were taught is not even documented by professionals, I've found out! (such as te-form compound verbs like たべてみる、もっていく)
I'm determined to be a better teacher than the teacher I had, so I refuse to plagiarize stuff. And tutoring with my own curriculum will be really good for my resume when I try to get into a Master's and Doctorate program for Japanese Linguistics.
So you see, it's not that I've encountered Japanese grammar - it's that I want to make sure I'm not teaching something *wrong* to a student of lesser knowledge than me. It's that I write a sentence in English, and before I send it, I make sure *I* can write it in Japanese. If it's hard for me, I won't make her try to do it. Right? But so I am doing a LOT of translating from English TO Japanese. And I want to do it the right way, not cutting corners or doing shotty work.
It's my dream to be a Japanese Linguist, so I guess you're right - what I'm looking for IS the very advanced Japanese grammar.
~_~ Does this explain any better? >.> Thanks for all the patience. ^_^
(1) become a fluent speaker of Japanese, ie know if not every Japanese expression a large range of them
(2) think about what the English sentence is trying to say and then think about how you would express that idea in Japanese.
I think the important thing here is the think about what "the English sentence is trying to say." This doesn't mean what words are being used, which grammar translates to what, it means the big picture -- the main message.
In this particular case, the problem is the word "how." As you have already noticed, there are (at least?) 3 different ways in which it can be used, depending on the context.
Due to that, instead of translating one word, you are trying to learn 3 new grammar points:
どんなに
どうやって
ことについて
Now, you've got to remember that these might not always be 1-to-1 translations of your "how" in every situation.
But that's just the point. Instead of going
"This is how I say this in English, how does this translate to Japanese?" I would suggest
"OK, this is a Japanese grammar point. This is how it's used"
Yes, you will run into things that you don't know how to say, and it is frustrating. That's part of being a language learner. But it's still better to learn to use the language as it is, as opposed to learning --so to speak-- a Japanese version of English.
We speak a lot in our Japanese classes, and you can tell this one girl translates everything in her head before she speaks because she speaks slower than everyone else, and I hear the phrase "なんか、わからないけど、英語で_____" come out of her mouth more than necessary.
edit: AS FOR TEACHING SOMEONE ELSE
Do the same thing. Choose grammar points you want to do and deal with those.
Instead of writing sentences in English and having her translate it, think of sentences with the grammar point in Japanese, perhaps leaving a blank or something.
ie. Instead of having "This is how to say "How": どんなに、どうやって、ことについて"
have: どんなに：
これはどんなにまずい - How gross is this?
etc...
You're not expected to know everything. But if you go one-by-one instead of one-by-three, it might be easier
Last edited by Asriel (2010 July 07, 5:12 pm)
I guess that's the thing . . . -_- *looks thoughtful*
Well, here's an example.
I know when I see a sentence like "She wrapped herself in a towel" in English, the Japanese will be "タオルで” not "タオルに" because in Japanese, de is used for what object you are using to do the verb, right?
But she's not there yet, my student. So I want to induce in her the ability to write in Japanese, and learn the right way to "think" about how things are, so that eventually, she will be able to move from thinking in English, to thinking in Japanese. (She is also very dedicated, and so she makes a great pupil!)
(ironically, my Japanese instructor has the same problem *in reverse*. She sent in an email to me (in English) saying "Here are answers of your questions")
I appreciate you guys' support. I was starting to think I was going crazy! Eh-heh . . . >.>
I never realized that I was a person trying to learn how to teach Japanese, talking to mostly people just trying to learn to speak it! I'm sorry that I was so oblivious.
And PM215, I want to thank you for being so patient and not getting mad at me. I was afraid you might and would tell me to get lost or something . . . ;-; Thanks for not kicking me out! ^_^'
Last edited by Ukchana (2010 July 07, 5:25 pm)
Ukchana wrote:
Well, first I want to say I'm sorry if I sound upset, but I guess I kind of am. :-( I'm trying really hard to teach this girl (I want to become a Japanese teacher some day) and I feel like everywhere I go for help, the people either don't know the answer (like my native Japanese teacher) or they are telling me I should just *know* something instantly.
I certainly didn't mean to make you upset. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need to take a step back and look at the problem from a wider angle. The reason you're finding what you're trying to do is hard is that it genuinely is hard. And (partly exactly because it *is* hard) I'm trying to suggest that it isn't actually the best way to go (for either you or your student).
Patronising analogy time: it's like you're trying to get from A to B by hacking your way through the undergrowth with a machete. You're not getting good answers to "how do I stop this machete getting blunt all the time?", because everybody you ask is thinking "why aren't you using the footpath instead?".
The problem seems to be that I am *not* here just to learn Japanese, I'm also trying to *teach* someone else Japanese. We aren't using a textbook - my Japanese college class didn't use a textbook either (the teacher actually plagiarized from Tae Kim's site - but the new teacher isn't the same one, so no worries there).
Ah. I think this is fundamentally the problem. What you need is to find a reasonable textbook and use it. Textbooks are exactly designed to deal with the problem of "I don't know anything about Japanese, where should I start and what order should I do it in?". Using a textbook isn't plagiarism -- the textbook provides the structure and the teacher provides explanation, clarification and so on. If you have a structure to work with, I think you'll find this gets rather easier.
Because I am teaching someone else, I have to make homework for her to do. Thus, I have to write sentences in English and have her translate into Japanese.
OK, so you're not currently trying to learn Japanese, so my earlier advice doesn't directly apply to you. But your student is, so it does apply to them. I think they will make faster progress if they're trying to read and understand Japanese sentences, and to construct their own, rather than trying to translate sentences you provide from English to Japanese.
The sort of homework which might help here would probably look like "what do these Japanese sentences mean?" or "here are a handful of Japanese sentences that use どのように, can you make up another five of your own?", or "here's a Japanese sentence with a gap in it, what should go in the gap?"
What I use in my class rather than English translation is English prompts. That is, something like "Tell your friend that you like Japanese food better than Chinese food." (which would be answered 中華料理より和食がすきだよ or something along those lines) This allows you to prompt the learner to say/write fairly specific things (and thus forcing them to use new structures you are trying to teach them), but it's different enough from translation that I don't think it causes the potential problems that translation can create.
@Ukchana
For the first one, I'd say「どれ位まずかった？」and for the second, 「どう（どうやって）作れば良い？」or something along that line.
The last one is a bit ambiguous. I feel the expression includes talking about the general manner of the way the Earth revolves, like the orbit, the distance from the sun, etc. though it may not include the specific mechanism like the physics of the gravity pull. If that's in fact the case, you can use 「地球が太陽の周りをどう(どのように)回っているか議論した」.
If you are meaning EXACTLY the same as "we discussed that the Earth revolves around the sun", it'll be「地球が太陽の周りを回っている事について議論した」but I assume you meant at least a slight difference here, didn't you?
And if you are actually talking about the mechanism with which the Earth revolves around the sun, then「地球がどうやって(どのようにして)太陽の周りを回っているのか議論した」. It's kind of a subtle difference and may be interchangeable depending on the context though.
And yeah, you probably want to have them do some excises on どのように & どうやって & どれ位 etc. too. For example, 彼をどう思いますか？"How do you think of him", どうやって来ましたか？ "How did you get here", "どれくらいかかりましたか？"How long did it take?" etc. I'm not a teacher of anything so I don't know where you can find them though...
Last edited by masaman (2010 July 07, 6:51 pm)
Hm, those are all really good ideas.
Yeah, we technically had a textbook but it was sooo bad (Nakama) that we never used it.
My old Japanese teacher (who I had for 3 out of the 4 classes I've taken) taught basically all with translations from English to Japanese. The homework was always "English sentence - translate into Japanese". We only did "Fill-in-the-blank which one do you use in this Japanese sentence" with しか、だけ、ばかり, (which to me was the wrong way to go because it's so subjective which one you use.)
The reason I really appreciate you guys teaching me this (even if it is the hard way - and perhaps *because* it's the hard way) is that I can find more of the patterns in Japanese that I've noticed before. I guess I just do things the hard way because I'm really OCD! (thus my determination to not "plagiarize" and to teach better than my teacher did) I am fascinated with the structure of Japanese and the etymology.
And Masaman, I really appreciate how you broke down the sentence even further to give me even more possibilities. Yeah, I guess it's a weird and clumsy way to learn for most people, but for me it really works better because then I can come up with a *way* to explain *why* something is the way it is in Japanese.
(oh, and Asrael: As for translating from English to Japanese being slow and clumsy, I *do* like to know both grammar equivalents, but I was one of the fastest *correct* speakers in our small class - we had one guy who speaks faster, but the teacher never has any idea what he's trying to say, lol)
I intend someday to write my own textbook because most of them teach Japanese in too vague of a manner. ^_^ I figure there have to be more people similar to me that want to learn everything - not just how but also why.
The other problem with our classes that I tried to change but couldn't (and all the other students in Japanese 5 were victim to the also) was that we NEVER (or rarely anyway) spoke Japanese in class. We always spoke English! (gah, so annoying!)
Since I'm tutoring over the internet (she lives almost 2 hours away) I can't do the speech stuff, but I really hope desperately that our new Japanese teacher (had her before - so much better!) will force us to speak in Japanese in class. (I even told her I'd buy her a whip, but she just looked embarrassed, lol)
Ukchana wrote:
I intend someday to write my own textbook because most of them teach Japanese in too vague of a manner. ^_^ I figure there have to be more people similar to me that want to learn everything - not just how but also why.
Everyone thinks so, but fact is no one would want such a textbook, it's extremely hard to understand the "why"s when you're still a beginner, adding them to a textbook would make it too hard to use for the people it's intended for. You might want to know why "ohayou" means "good morning" the first time you learn it... but what kind of beginner who can't even say good morning yet really wants to read about how ohayou is an archaic polite form of hayai which is an adjective which means early?
Better to learn the important stuff first, then go into details when you have the knowledge needed to comprehend it.
Tobberoth,
Well, maybe you're right that beginners wouldn't want a textbook explaining everything, but I'm not a beginner if I've taken 2 years of Japanese - and *I* want such a textbook!
And I think a lot of the time textbooks don't cater to what's actually important. Often they just want to teach people quickly, so people get confused as to exactly what they are saying and why.
The book I would make would be more for people who are determined to learn the entire language. After all, how many "beginner" books are out there? (tons, especially at book stores) Yet there are comparatively few for intermediate/advanced students.
The beginner parts would, of course, teach what is the beginning. (And if you're right that "everyone thinks" such a book would be a good idea, then that means there are a *lot* of people - "everyone" - who would enjoy and get something out of such a book! lol)
Maybe I need to give an example of what I'm talking about.
--------
Here is an example of what all of your answers helped me to make (for my own use in learning Japanese myself - and also for future teaching and maybe textbook making.) Maybe you'll find it interesting:
(no guarantee it's accurate, lol, but I try!)
Like/ similar to (a cat): (猫)のように
How much/many (cats): どんなに(猫)
This much/many (cats): こんなに(猫)
That many (cats):そんなに(猫)
That-over there many(cats):あんなに(猫)
Concerning the [general] topic [about] how (cats exist): (猫)どのように(いる)
Such (cats): (as this)こんな(猫), (as that)そんな(猫),(as that-over there)あんな(猫) , (which cat)どんな(猫)
Concerning the [general] topic of by what means (cats exist): (猫) どうやってどのように(いる)
How, by what means, in what way (do cats exist): (猫)どうやって(いる）
I find the above to be a helpful way to learn. ^_^
I started drinking beer, so sorry if I start not making sense, but
Ukchana wrote:
My old Japanese teacher (who I had for 3 out of the 4 classes I've taken) taught basically all with translations from English to Japanese. The homework was always "English sentence - translate into Japanese".
I wouldn't say this is bad, but this is pretty much how Japanese people are taught English and they usually end up sounding very strange, a lot of times to the point they are incomprehensible... Japanese and English are very different and if you translate one another, you usually get really weird expressions unless you are really good at both languages.
I think being picky is good though. It's just doing it from English to Japanese in this particular case isn't looking too good. It's probably better to list up the Japanese expressions, like どうやって、どれだけ、いくつ、いくら、etc. and come up with the examples and explanations for each of them.
Anyway, I was actually interested in the difference between "to discuss how the Earth revolves around the sun" and "to discuss that the Earth revolves around the sun", because my mother tongue is Japanese and English is my second language, and I thought you might have a different idea from mine.
I feel like with "to discuss how the Earth revolves around the sun", you are talking about the "state" of the whole situation, about the state and/or condition of the Earth and the surrounding area and terrestrial bodies when the Earth revolves around the sun. But with "to discuss that the Earth revolves around the sun", you are talking ABOUT the fact that "the Earth revolves around the sun". If this is right, then my previous post should be accurate. If not, well, things can be even more complicated.
As for the cat examples, the below is how I would say, but I think many of them need more specific examples.
Like/ similar to (a cat): (猫)のように
How much/many (cats): どれだけの(猫)
This much/many (cats): これだけの(猫)
That many (cats):それだけの(猫)
That-over there many(cats):あそこにいるあれほどの(猫)
Concerning the [general] topic [about] how (cats exist): (猫がいる）有様
Such (cats): (as this)こんな(猫), (as that)そんな(猫),(as that-over there)あんな(猫) , (which cat)どの(猫)
Concerning the [general] topic of by what means (cats exist): なにによって
How, by what means, in what way (do cats exist): どのようにして
Well, Masaman, I think you are very correct in your English ideas of what I meant. You actually broke it down even further, which satisfied my unquenchable OCD when it comes to Japanese (I have been known to become so obsessed with learning obscure Japanese language stuff that the laptop has to be literally *yanked* from my hands late at night...)
I am quite impressed, because you manage to understand English in a way that most English speakers don't! I also am pretty good with English (but my knowledge of grammar *words* is actually getting better because I'm trying to teach Japanese, lol) and most English-speaking natives would not be able to tell you the difference between the 5 different "hows" we collaboratively have come up with. Most would say "why does it matter?" (these are the people I struggle to not strangle. OCD . . . >.>)
Thanks for your editing!
So, what would "あんなに(猫)" actually be, in your opinion? (because with these I did the ol' reverse-engineering from Japanese, so I trust your judgment more than mine^_^.)
In fact, if you could do the opposite (keep the Japanese - except where the 猫 and いる are, but change the English to fit the Japanese) that would be really helpful! (Not that you *have* to, lol.^_^ But if you felt like it ...)
Basically, this small example is my attempt to do what we've all been discussing - which is "taking the Japanese words and finding an English for them" (instead of the other way around)
But as everyone can see, I run into problems there, too. Like you said, Masaman, I really need better examples. I was trying to stick to one noun (cat) so as to keep the simplicity and make it obvious what was *not* part of the grammar. You know what I mean?
If anyone cares to give their interpretation of the *Japanese* side of my "cat-tastrophe" (bleh, English pun humor, lol) I'd be very pleased!
(I have 12 pages in MSword of similar stuff which my poor Japanese teacher went over with me - somewhat against her better judgment - for 2 hours to correct. She thought I was crazy. >.> She's probably right. ^_^)
(PS: I'm not drunk, but really tired. So about the same effect, lol)
Last edited by Ukchana (2010 July 07, 9:15 pm)
@Ukchana
Cool, so I'm getting it right eh? I pretty much don't know anything about grammar, in English or Japanese, but I guess reading and listening a lot works.
Then yea, 地球がどう回っているか or 地球がどう回っているか should be the one for "how the Earth revolves".
What is あんなに(猫)? is hard to answer. Things change depending on the verb, object, and context. If you want to say "There are that many cats over there", it's "あそこにあんなに猫が居る". So in this case "that many" = あんなに, but in the sentence like "I didn't think the food would be that bad" = あんなに食事がまずいとは思わなかった, the equivalent of あんなに here is "that" or "to that extent". So "あんなに" can be "that many" and/or "to that extent", or it can simply be "that".
Last edited by masaman (2010 July 07, 10:25 pm)
Ukchana wrote:
Basically, there are many forms of the English word "how". I'm running into three that are getting confusing:
1: How (much, often, etc) ex: "How awful was the food?"
2: How (to do, what method, what way) ex: "How (what way) should I cook this?"
3: How (that, the subject of) "We discussed how the Earth revolved around the sun"
("We discussed {the subject of} the Earth revolving around the sun")
("We discussed {that} the Earth revolves around the sun")
As far as I can tell, #1 would be "どんなに" & #2 is "どのように". But it's #3 that is giving me problems.
For #3, I have gotten various answers. I was thinking 方、some said こと（事）, but overall none of the answers *feel* right.
Like Yudantaiteki said, I don't know if "We discuss that the Earth revolves around the sun" is correct... I guess you can discuss whether it's ok, how to know if it's grammatical, the fact that it sound strange to some people but not to others, etc. But I'm not very sure what you mean by "We discussed that the Earth revolves around the sun." Hmm...
Anyway, are you having trouble translating "how"s as in:
A: So, Ukchana and I have been talking about how we're working hard, and not getting paid for it.
つかさー、Ukchanaと話してたんだけどさ。私らめっちゃ働いてんのに給料でないってどういうことよ。
B: That sucks. But seriously, can you just stop talking about how you're being taken advantage of already?
ご愁傷様（棒読み）。てかさ、その私利用されてるどうのこうのの話、いい加減うざいんだけど。
A: But they ARE taking advantage of me! Do you think I did something wrong?
でもあいつら非道いんだって！ 私なんか悪いことしたかなぁ？
B: How should I know? I don't quite understand why you keep telling me the exact same thing again and again.
知るかよ。毎回同じ話うぜーよ。
A: How come you don't understand me? Ugh! I've been telling everyone how I'm feeling God knows how many times! But no one understands me!
もぅ！なんで、こう、わかんないかなー！誰に何回言ってもみんな全然わかってくれない！
I tried to use various kinds of "how"s in the short dialogue and gave an example translation.
As for #3 "how" in your question, I vaguely remember someone asked a similar question somewhere on the internet. The sentence was something like:
Um, you know how you lent me your camera the other day? Well, um, I kinda dropped it in the lake.
えっと、この前カメラ借りたでしょ？ まあ、その、なんというか池に落としちゃったんだよね。
I don't remember the exact sentence or what his actual question was. But I think it was about the difference between "You know how you lent me your camera" and "You know that you lent me your camera."
Anyway, it seems like this "how" is the same as what you're talking about in #3. Am I right?
Last edited by magamo (2010 July 07, 11:21 pm)
Ukchana, if you like Eng → Jap so much, then you should have a look at Eijiro:
・how should I
・how fast
・discuss about how
Not all Japanese sentences there sound natural, so watch out.
Well, I'd rather rely on good data from you guys for stuff (especially if you warn me that the sentences don't all sound natural - I couldn't tell which ones were natural or not! lol)
Yeah, just having looked quickly at that Eijiro site, I think I trust you guys more. >.> Real people are so much better than a website/program (this is why I know Google translate will never put translators out of business.)
Magamo, you're right, it's #3 that I was curious about, and it is more like "how" as in "the fact of" or "the situation of" (but we English speakers are so vague, lol)
One of the great things about Japanese is that they have a different word for everything. English, on the other hand, has the *same* word for everything (and often it's not even spelled different). So sometimes I feel like being an English-speaking native is the WORST language to start learning Japanese from, because it's like Japanese is calculus and English is Sesame Street. ^o^ (Not that I'm saying Japanese always has a "right answer" - it's just that it seems to be easier to tell grammatically what people are trying to say in Japanese than what people mean in English.)
Unfortunately, English is all I have to go off of . . .
Masaman, thank you for that clearing up! I can add that to my list of Japanese grammar, lol. (Some people collect stamps - I collect Japanese grammar . . .>.>)
Last edited by Ukchana (2010 July 08, 10:00 am)
Ukchana, the "textbook" you're looking for exists, it's just that it's not a textbook because you generally don't use textbooks after studying a language for 2 years. Textbooks are, like you said, for beginners.
For example, Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar contains pretty much every single grammatic structure in Japanese, such as the ones listed in your post a while back. They are extremely comprehensive with notes how they differ from similar expressions, when they can be used, and how they mean different things in different situations. Those books also contain a lot of example sentences.
That's what you should use to learn the "why"s after studying for two years. Dictionaries, not textbooks.
Last edited by Tobberoth (2010 July 08, 10:34 am)
Wow, thanks Tobberoth. That sounds like a good buy.
Well, our class for Japanese 5 is going to use a textbook - apparently a better one than Nakama. It's called "Minna no Nihongo". I haven't bought it yet because I am wary of buying any textbooks just on general principle. (I want to see if we actually use it before I shell out the money for it)
I'll look into that. My luck with buying Japanese grammar books is normally really bad, but if you recommend it, I'll give it a try. ^_^
Okay, I read the reviews on Amazon for those and they really seem invaluable. All the reviewers were pretty glowing.
*hugs Tobberoth* I am buying all three (Begin/Intm/Adv) right now!
Too bad I have to wait 9 days to read them . . .
^_^