Weird differences in stroke order

baxter New member

Registered: 2010-03-25 Posts: 7

In my study of kanji i came across these two guys:

http://kakijun.main.jp/gif/0921200.gif
http://kakijun.main.jp/gif/shibi13200.gif

Why is the second one written so differently? It might not be that important, but i'm big on stroke order and from what i can tell they're the exact same character. I've seen some minor variations before, but this one seemed really weird to me. Thoughts?

LazyNomad Member

From: both countries Registered: 2009-03-06 Posts: 155

Just an alternate form. Every kanji not in the official list would use this alternate form.

thistime Member

Registered: 2008-11-04 Posts: 223

They're not the same. The first one is 卑しい　いやしい　meaning crude or vulgar. The second one is 痺れる　しびれる meaning become numb.

Last edited by thistime (2010 June 29, 11:22 pm)

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Womacks23 Member

From: 恵比寿 Registered: 2008-01-10 Posts: 596

baxter wrote:
In my study of kanji i came across these two guys:

Why is the second one written so differently? It might not be that important, but i'm big on stroke order and from what i can tell they're the exact same character. I've seen some minor variations before, but this one seemed really weird to me. Thoughts?

Compare the downward stroke in the 田 radical and you'll spot the difference.

baxter New member

Registered: 2010-03-25 Posts: 7

LazyNomad wrote:
Just an alternate form. Every kanji not in the official list would use this alternate form.

Oh really? Are you saying that only the jouyou have standardized stroke order and for all the rest there's a lot of variation?

thistime wrote:
They're not the same. The first one is 卑しい　いやしい　meaning crude or vulgar. The second one is 痺れる　しびれる meaning become numb.

I didn't mean they were the same kanji, but the character inside of 痺 is 卑. Sorry, i guess i wasn't clear.

baxter New member

Registered: 2010-03-25 Posts: 7

Womacks23 wrote:
Compare the downward stroke in the 田 radical and you'll spot the difference.

Yeah, i saw the difference and that's what the thread is about. Sorry if the thread was confusing. I was looking for someone to expound on the differences in stroke order.

LazyNomad Member

From: both countries Registered: 2009-03-06 Posts: 155

baxter wrote:
LazyNomad wrote:
Just an alternate form. Every kanji not in the official list would use this alternate form.
Oh really? Are you saying that only the jouyou have standardized stroke order

Yes.
But there is not much variation either. Probably all alternate forms will be standardized some day.

Womacks23 Member

From: 恵比寿 Registered: 2008-01-10 Posts: 596

The character inside of 痺 is 卑 and is a variant of 卑 but not exactly the same character.

Katsuo M.O.D.

From: Tokyo Registered: 2007-02-06 Posts: 887 Website

卑 and 碑 contain 田. The centre vertical stroke in 田 does not pass through the lower horizontal one and is therefore drawn before it.

婢 and 痺 on the other hand contain an element that is more like 甲 (but curving off to the left). In this case the centre vertical stroke does pass through the lower horizontal one, and is therefore drawn after it.

baxter New member

Registered: 2010-03-25 Posts: 7

I guess i don't really understand what variants are. They have the same meaning but just written a little differently, right?

LazyNomad Member

From: both countries Registered: 2009-03-06 Posts: 155

Womacks23 wrote:
The character inside of 痺 is 卑 and is a variant of 卑 but not exactly the same character.

Technically they are the same character, but their radical is different. 十 (#24)　vs　ﾉ (#4).

Womacks23 Member

From: 恵比寿 Registered: 2008-01-10 Posts: 596

baxter wrote:
I guess i don't really understand what variants are. They have the same meaning but just written a little differently, right?

Pretty much.

A lot of characters got simplified over time. Which is why 卑 became 卑. But I really have no idea why 痺 wasn't changed to include 卑.

Katsuo M.O.D.

From: Tokyo Registered: 2007-02-06 Posts: 887 Website

baxter wrote:
I guess i don't really understand what variants are. They have the same meaning but just written a little differently, right?

Variants have the same meaning and readings, but the written forms may be similar or quite different. E.g. 竜 and 龍 are variants (both mean "dragon"). Some variations are consistent though, so if you know that 滝 means "waterfall", it's easy to guess 瀧 when you come across it.

gfb345 Member

Registered: 2010-01-19 Posts: 255

I've come across so much stroke-order weirdness that it doesn't bother me anymore . I posted a few inconsistent pairs here, but there are a lot more.

yudantaiteki Member

Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

Womacks23 wrote:
A lot of characters got simplified over time. Which is why 卑 became 卑. But I really have no idea why 痺 wasn't changed to include 卑.

It's not Jouyou, so there's no official simplification for it. If it were on the Jouyou list it would almost certainly include 卑 instead.

LazyNomad Member

From: both countries Registered: 2009-03-06 Posts: 155

Womacks23 wrote:
A lot of characters got simplified over time. Which is why 卑 became 卑.

So it became a LOT more simple, isn`t it? lol

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baxter wrote:

LazyNomad wrote:

thistime wrote:

Womacks23 wrote:

baxter wrote:

LazyNomad wrote:

Womacks23 wrote:

baxter wrote:

baxter wrote:

Womacks23 wrote:

Womacks23 wrote: