I often hear the りゃりゅりょ sound pronounced like r -> y -> (vowel) by English speakers. The actual sound should be more like a single consonant "ry" immediately followed by a vowel. And this consonant is exactly the same as the consonant for り, i.e., りゃ, りゅ, りょ and り should be pronounced by the same single consonant followed by vowels あ, う, お and い respectively.

So if you can pronounce り, you should be able to pronounce りゃりゅりょ too. I think り is usually closer to the English "l" sound than the "r" sound.

To me, the consonant for りゃりゅりょ and り sounds like l + slight y pronounced simultaneously with your mouth sort of closed. If your native language is English, maybe saying "lyah" very quickly help you get the feel. Also, I think the English "l" requires you to use your tongue and jaw more actively and dynamically. I also think consonant for り is a little similar to the English d or t in a sense.

Also, a wide range of different sounds fall into the two consonants for りゃりゅりょり and らるれろ. So if you pick a different word/phrase containing りゃ, the actual sound might be slightly different.

I guess if you think of it in context of your native language can help of it.

First say the words: Betty, bottle, better, betting, butter.

Assuming you have typical American pronunciation (profile says you're from Georgia...), the "tt" sound you just made gets you the ri sound.  Especially the first word, betty and the word betting.   Then its just a simple metter of adding a quick -yo -yu or -ya

best of luck

Last edited by aquafina (2010 June 27, 7:36 pm)

Say 清涼飲料水 5 times really fast.

I can pronounce ら り る れ ろ no problem but when I try to say 料理 I still sound funny.. I made several hundred attempts today but my wife still says I can't say it... Grrrrr! Maybe it has something to do with my very short tongue...

If you pronounce due and do differently, substitute due's d to American T in "forty". That's りゅー. If you pronounce due and do the same way, well, check out the pronunciation of people who don't. There are people who put Y in due, and that's what you want to do with りょ too, I think.

Last edited by masaman (2010 June 28, 12:28 am)

Sorry for posting before others reply (and sorry for editing the last post again and again!), but I think I found the way to get りゃりゅりょ and り.

According to many websites, the consonant for them is the "palatalized" version of the Japanese r. If you're doing AJATT-like learning and want a Japanese article, this explains how しゃ, ちゃ, にゃ, ひゃ, みゃ, and りゃ are all palatalized versions. The palatalization mechanism is explained here in Japanese.

If you want an explanation in English, palatalization is explained here.

If it's too long and too detailed, here is a tl;dr version:

Wikipedia wrote:

This effect can also be seen in casual speech in some dialects, where Do you want to go? comes out as [dʒuː ˈwʌnə ɡoʊ], and Did you eat yet? as [ˈdɪdʒə ˈiːtʃɛt].

I think the first example is referring to the phenomenons that "Do you" part in "Do you want to go?" becomes "Joo." Similarly, the second example is about "Did you" sounding "Dijoo" and "eat yet" sounding "eechet." They're about t/d + y becomes ch/j in certain situations. If your dialect doesn't have this phenomenon, here's another example in English:

Wikipedia wrote:

...it may go unnoticed by native speakers. As an example, compare the /k/ of English key with the /k/ of coo, or the /t/ of tea with the /t/ of took. The first word of each pair is palatalized, but few English speakers would perceive them as distinct.

This isn't a good example though because, according to the article, not many native English speakers notice this difference between different "k"s or "t"s in their own language.

Anyway, I think the same process of blending a consonant with y gives the consonant for りゃりゅりょ and り. If you speak English with an American accent that has "d"-ish "t" in "better," "water," etc., you can get one legitimate version of Japanese consonants for らるれろ for free. And you apply to it the y merging you do for "Do you = Joo" and "eat yet = eechet." Then you get the consonant for りゃりゅりょ and り.

For example, if you can settle for approximating う by the ooh sound in English, saying "る you" quickly like "Do you = Joo" should give you りゅ (with the vowel approximated by ooh).

As IceCream said, い and y are pretty much the same. So you always use this palatalized version of the Japanese r when you pronounce り, hence the difference between らるれろ and り.

This palatalization thing should be linguistically correct and matches well with what IceCream said in this thread. As a native speaker, I think I also pronounce りゃりゅりょ and り this way.

So if you merge the Japanese r (which you can easily get from t in better) with y (which has pretty much the same mouth position as the Japanese い, which is similar to ee as in feet) the way you do to get j and ch from d+y and t+y in English, you should be able to pronounce りゃりゅりょ and り.

Last edited by magamo (2010 June 28, 5:50 am)

masaman wrote:

If you pronounce due and do differently, substitute due's d to American T in "forty". That's りゅー. If you pronounce due and do the same way, well, check out the pronunciation of people who don't. There are people who put Y in due, and that's what you want to do with りょ too, I think.

Omg I'm saying right now! Finally hit on my Georgia-Tennessee accent!

magamo wrote:

らめぇ、らめらってばぁ (Never ask what this means. Ever.)

So, masaman. Um, could you say it with plenty of emotion

No no no no no. I'm not saying らめってばぁ with a lot of emotion even nobody is watching

I'm not too sure how I'm saying らりるれろ but, like you said, as long as you are hitting one of the allophones, I think that's good enough in all practical senses, even if you are aiming for native like pronunciation.

Hashiriya wrote:

Omg I'm saying right now! Finally hit on my Georgia-Tennessee accent!

Coool. Does your wife approve it?

Javizy wrote:

I wonder how much difference the position of your mouth makes. You kind of do a creepy smile when you say い, but not with the 'i' in 'it' or E.

the vowel い is more like the one in "eat". When Japanese people say "it" it sounds pretty much like "eat". But "i" in it would do too, though it sounds a bit loose.

The vowel in りゃ is あ and the vowel in りょ is お, so you don't have い there, just like the vowel in due is "oo" and there is no "i".

Last edited by masaman (2010 June 28, 10:44 am)

Nice. Now we just need to come up with a trick that works for British dudes

Javizy wrote:

masaman wrote:

the vowel い is more like the one in "eat". When Japanese people say "it" it sounds pretty much like "eat". But "i" in it would do too, though it sounds a bit loose.

The vowel in りゃ is あ and the vowel in りょ is お, so you don't have い there, just like the vowel in due is "oo" and there is no "i".

Okay, ignore what I said about りゃりゅりょ...

Mouth position must play a role though, right? I never move my mouth in the same way a Japanese person does when I speak English, so even if there are similarities with い, it's hard to imagine getting native-like results using ea(t) as a model.

Maybe this is trivial to some. I've heard of people practising in the mirror when they're beginners and whatnot, but I certainly overlooked it. It's a shame because my cheek muscles could've developed nicely by now

い is somewhat looser than e in "eat", but it sounds almost identical to い to me. Japanese people cant even distinguish the イ sounds in it and eat. They can hear the difference in length, so they sound different like イット and イート, but they don't notice that these イ are actually different sounds unless they try really hard, so I don't think it is a big deal. Of course it is always better to do it the right way, but I think English speakers are generally a bit too picky on phonemes. Mora (the length of each syllable) and pitch (accent) are more important in speaking Japanese naturally than perfecting each phoneme, imo. When I accidentally use an English phoneme in Japanese, say F for ふ, my friends don't even notice it. When I use a wrong pitch because I don't know the correct pitch for some of the newer words like 写メ though, they'll instantly pick on me.

Last edited by masaman (2010 June 28, 4:46 pm)