It's meant to be intimidating. It is a 'Yankee' thing for the most part, though since Yankees are wannabe Yakuza maybe it is a Yakuza thing.

It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish. Yet another part of Spanish that Japanese can natively get easily.

bassxx2099 wrote:

Lets just start off with, I noticed that too! And I also wanted to know how to peform the aerolar trill or the spanish rolled r. Probably the easiest way was the "vision dream method." It also took me 1 hour to figure out how to finally roll my r's with this method. This method usually works with those who are natural english speakers.  Also as a side note, I was about to give up when I decided to finally just force the "si" of vision, and it just magically happened. Afterwards I was able to do after that point, almost like riding a bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp1drqleHc0

As a kid, I had to have speech therapy for my R's and L's.  This of course meant that rolling an R just wasn't possible either, so I eventually had to learn it.  I learned it through constant practice.  (After they fixed my Ls and Rs in school, that is.)

One thing I noted in the wikihow page for rolling an R is that your tongue might be too stiff and preventing it.  It is very important to note that it isn't something you can use more force and make happen.  You have to loosen your tongue.  Relax, not strengthen.

And I haven't seen this anywhere else, but it might help.  Behind your top teeth, there's a curve to your gums.  If I place my tongue there and blow are out of my mouth, I can make my tongue vibrate against my gums.  It's the same motion involved with rolling an R and you don't need to be actually making any sound to practice it.

Edit:  As a cosmic karmic bonus, my speech issues as a kid made Japanese L/R really easy. 

Last edited by wccrawford (2010 May 15, 9:29 pm)

kapalama wrote:

It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish. Yet another part of Spanish that Japanese can natively get easily.

In my experience, the majority of Japanese people cannot easily pronounce this sound, if at all.

Like I said, this skill can be learned all you have to do is to teach the tounge to began to vibrate using the "si" of vision and it will work after some practice. My friends were so amazed that I learned how to roll my r's so quickly. Also as a side note, I have been trying to roll my r's since I was a kid and to no avail I only spat at people. However, with the "vision dream method" it worked like a charm.

JimmySeal wrote:

Was there some reason you thought you needed to repeat what you had said 15 hours earlier, but in a different order?

Because rolling my r's was something I thought I could never learn. I have been trying since I was a kid. I kind of don't mind if I repeat myself since I am so happy I can finally roll my r's. Who wouldn't be if you could accomplish something you've been trying your whole life for in an hour?

I've tried everything over the years but never could do it, even though I learned the 'regular' Japanese/French 'r' sounds pretty much instantly after hearing them. I've tried every technique ever mentioned. The closest success I've had is with that butter/ladder thing. The zhhhdruh technique as mentioned in above comments/video/Wikihow doesn't work for me at all but I'll keep testing it out.

Heh, I went back to playing with the butter/ladder thingy and I've regained that half-assed thing, I'll try applying it to some Spanish and Japanese words (thanks, My Boss My Hero) and see if I can't make it sound the same.

Last edited by nest0r (2010 May 17, 9:13 pm)

That vision dream thing isn't really working for me, but I can get a good half-second roll going if I keep saying これ over and over.

Maybe just learning Japanese will help develop it on its own or something...

Kinda related, but does anyone know of a good method to practice the z-sound of Japanese? My native tongue doesn't have that sound, and when trying to pronounce e.g. ず, it usually ends up sounding like す or つ. Also, is there supposed to be any difference in pronunciation between ず and づ, or ぢ and じ?

shang wrote:

Kinda related, but does anyone know of a good method to practice the z-sound of Japanese? My native tongue doesn't have that sound, and when trying to pronounce e.g. ず, it usually ends up sounding like す or つ.

The only thing I can suggest is to compare the subjective difference between any voiced and unvoiced consonants.  For instance, if I compare v and f in English, I see that the only difference is that my vocal cords vibrate with v but not with f.  Similarly, the only difference between ず and す is that with the former the vocal cords vibrate, but not with the latter.  Just say ssssssss, and then "engage" your vocal cords; at this point ssssssss should turn into zzzzzzzz.

shang wrote:

Also, is there supposed to be any difference in pronunciation between ず and づ, or ぢ and じ?

According to Vance (The Sounds of Japanese) historically the sounds were different, but that this difference has disappeared today, at least in the Tokyo dialect.

ninetimes wrote:

It is (to me) a lot like the trilled ''r" in Spanish.

When initially being taught/coached to produce the l/r mid-range sound, I found myself reaching for the trilled r sound from Spanish.  I never actually trilled it, though, just a single... click?  I don't know the right linguistic term to use.  Same tongue position, though, or real similar, and produces roughly the right sound, a very neutral one.  Have to adjust for particulars but it is generally my default (full disclosure: I am not an expert).

I could be entirely wrong on this, but nobody has complained about it yet.  In classes I was usually pointed out as an example of someone who was 'doing it right' even though I never quite understood what I was doing.  Explaining it generally just got looks of confusion, since I don't think most people I took classes with studied any Spanish.

Me exactly but without the classroom, just immersion technique. It struck me how much Japanese sounds like Spanish. No v sound, R is actually D, turning everyone's name into Italian/SPanish (Roberto, etc.), and all their words have to end in a vowel.

Last edited by kapalama (2010 May 24, 3:41 pm)

kapalama wrote:

No v sound, R is actually D, turning everyone's name into Italian/SPanish (Roberto, etc.), and all their words have to end in a vowel.

Plenty of Japanese words and names end in ん.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2010 June 04, 7:39 am)