liosama wrote:

You are missing the point once again.

That was my first post on this thread... once again, or just once?

liosama wrote:

My argument is that the foundation on which a military is based on is fundamentally wrong. So everyone who enlists in the military, to me, is just as stupid.

I get that you think war is bad, but that's really not the same thing as thinking everyone who works for the military are stupid or bad people. Do you pay taxes? Do you abide by your country's laws? You are supporting the military system. You are helping to create a situation in which it makes real economic sense for someone to join the army and have a secure job.

If you really dislike the military system you should work towards ending it rather than hating people who are caught up in it. I get what you're driving at, but it's totally misguided. Everyone needs to survive, and for a LOT of people, joining the army is by far the most secure way of providing a future for yourself and your family.

liosama wrote:

I will only ever respect someone who resists compulsory military service where they're arrested or something. Which is unfortunately very rare. In places where there is no conscription, then likewise I'll understand if someone is doing it for monetary reasons or for resume experience, but all the same it's a filthy job.

You have no respect for people who don't want to face legal penalties by refusing to clean toilets and wear uniform for a few years? Most conscripts never fight, or even leave their own country. It makes more sense to be annoyed at people who willfully join the army (and even then, see previous response).

liosama wrote:

I may seem quite the naive pacifist

You don't seem like a pacifist, you seem like you hate soldiers. Coming from a position of judgement and hatred is a weak way to be pacifist. If you don't understand why people do what they do and stop hating them for it, you'll never be able to change people's minds about it. You'll be rightly labelled as bitter, extreme and hycpocritical if you just denounce something with the same attitude that perpetuates it in the first place.

Last edited by Blahah (2010 April 25, 1:24 pm)

I've been to the army, and it sucks!

nukemarine's argument is childish. It makes no distinction between two persons entering in conflict and entirely nations sending their youth to battle.

a person can kill someone and escape. Nations will have consequences. No matter what.

Jarvik7 wrote:

Nukemarine wrote:

Liosama,

I'll still bring home a good six-figure paycheck and enjoy life pretty much in the way I see fit.

Is that six figures in yen? Because very few soldiers ever make that much in dollars. From what I hear, your pay for the first few years is significantly below minimum wage, especially considering that it's a 24/7 job on deployment.

No, it's in dollars. Last year I made over 100 thousand, of which 90% was tax free. To make the equivalent in the civilian sector I would have had to make about 150 thousand or more. Technically I made more due to some investments, but the point was about the military being supported by the economy of society.

Even in the first few years of service now, the pay for military has been much better than when I first entered 16 years ago. Someone married and stationed in San Diego can expect more than 30 thousand a year in pay on average their first four years. Not bad for a guy or gal with just a high school education.

Jarvik7 wrote:

In my experience (as an army brat who has lived on-base), the majority of people join the military for one of the following reasons:
-They have no other career options other than service positions/menial labor.
-They want to get out of their middle-of-nowhere town.
-They (or others) think that the training will straighten themselves out
-They are pressured into it by their family (father was a soldier etc)

I'd probably agree with this list. Don't forget the alpha male types that have to prove themselves. The Marine Corp is full of those types in addition to the SEAL wanna-bes in the Navy.

Jarvik7 wrote:

One is the biggest group - the majority of soldiers are from lower class families and lack education (and access to it). Two is ironic because most postings are in the middle-of-nowhere. Three is pitiful because no one comes back from combat better for it (PTSD/injured/alcoholic/dead).

The mistake I'm seeing in this thread is that they argue from the viewpoint that guys join the military to go to war and kill guys. What you actually have is a job that's a job like most other places more or less. You have the medical field that mirror images the civilian side, supply field that is just as messed up as any corporations supply sector, security, communications, repair, automotive, etc. A majority of your service members are just not in a position to directly kill somebody legally. Most probably don't want to be in that position anyway.

Put it in another way, how many people become cops with the hopes of shooting somebody? How many cops have needed to pull their guns legitimately? How many have had to actually shoot at somebody? The percentages get smaller.  Same concept works with the military in that the chance is there, but the desire and reasonable opportunity is not.

Opting out of America's war economy is possible but very difficult.  I did it for years but had the ideal conditions of living on the beaches of Kauai, Hawaii where it never gets cold (at night it can get a little chilly), one can run around mostly nude, there is fresh water to drink and a variety of fruit, nuts and plants that grow wild to eat.  Having the guidance of Tibetan lamas who lived in mountain caves during their youth also helped.

As a side note.  I still think this thread is going nowhere positive and should be made to disappear.

I think the original poster had no intentions of this turning into a thread attacking an occupation, but that is what it has turned into. There really isn't much room for debate on this topic.  Who, among those that would have an opinion on this either way, is going to budge in their view? 
Should we make a thread on all occupations that should be avoided as harmful to society?   That might be useful.  I don't think singling one out is.

*edit (off the topic)
As one who accepts much of the Buddhist thought on re-birth,  the idea of dying for a cause is not really much of a sacrifice.  In a short time I will be in my new mother's womb and enjoying my next life's adventures.  It would be under extremely, extremely unusual circumstances I would ever consider killing for a cause.  That doesn't mean one shouldn't use all non-lethal means to protect one's own life though.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2010 April 25, 5:30 pm)

Okay it was my mistake to label myself as a pacifist, I do love peace and justice but I agree with violence when it is done against a stronger oppressing power. That was my bad, most of the arguments against me were based on that word alone.

Blahah wrote:

I get that you think war is bad, but that's really not the same thing as thinking everyone who works for the military are stupid or bad people. Do you pay taxes? Do you abide by your country's laws? You are supporting the military system. You are helping to create a situation in which it makes real economic sense for someone to join the army and have a secure job.

If you really dislike the military system you should work towards ending it rather than hating people who are caught up in it. I get what you're driving at, but it's totally misguided. Everyone needs to survive, and for a LOT of people, joining the army is by far the most secure way of providing a future for yourself and your family.

nukemarine wrote:

You are a part of society, as such you are a part of what society creates and upholds. Unless you grow your own food, make your own guns and ammo, supply your own power, provide your own protection, etc. then you are in part to blame for any ills that your society creates.

Yeah because the protests I take part in aren't really getting me anywhere, so an idea! I'll just take over the Australian ministry of defense in order to get what I want, I'll then start a revolution inside Australia and then run the country myself!! How bout that, then I won't be called a hypocrite for having an opinion!!!

liosama wrote:

You have no respect for people who don't want to face legal penalties by refusing to clean toilets and wear uniform for a few years? Most conscripts never fight, or even leave their own country. It makes more sense to be annoyed at people who willfully join the army (and even then, see previous response).

Yes because being in the army is all about cleaning toilets and wearing a uniform. Every conscript in israel has to serve at a military check point. As I said before, the problem comes down to ignorance, should a soldier know truly know what they're getting into, they wouldn't do it in the first place. I was specifically arguing the case of people enlisting during the time of war, when propaganda is afloat. Perhaps that wasn't clear?

Blahah wrote:

liosama wrote:

I may seem quite the naive pacifist

You don't seem like a pacifist, you seem like you hate soldiers. Coming from a position of judgement and hatred is a weak way to be pacifist. If you don't understand why people do what they do and stop hating them for it, you'll never be able to change people's minds about it. You'll be rightly labelled as bitter, extreme and hycpocritical if you just denounce something with the same attitude that perpetuates it in the first place.

My hatred for soldiers is not blind, it comes out of loving humans? I still haven't been convinced as to other reasons why someone would join the army. I totally understand the list Jarvik's made. But that is still going against the fact that a soldier, will go to Iraq, Afghanistan fighting against them ultimately thinking they're there to free the country when they probably have little idea of the history and how it got to be like that in the first place.

Ice: In my first post I already said I'm fine with fighting against a foreign occupier, oppression, revolutions et cetera. And yeah I support peacekeeping forces as well.

iceice wrote:

Neither do i find the army training people to kill particularly different from training someone to walk into a company with their shiny suit and their slick hair and turn a blind eye to everything that is morally wrong with that company. Most company work you are as much of a machine as a bottom rung army grunt is. Except in that case, you get to hide behind your polished look and pretend that you are civilised... a human being

That's true I agree with you there as well.

nukemarine wrote:

Liosama,
In all honesty, I don't think you are a pacifist. You strike me as a person who locks his doors, does not disclose the pin number to your ATM card, keeps your passwords secret.

As a matter of fact, I don't lock my door, but I do keep my pin number disclosed because my money can get stolen yo. And yo I don't see what that has to do with not liking war. (Or even being a pacifist)

nukemarine wrote:

If someone came to your place to take your computer, I get the feeling you're the type of person that would resist him. A true pacifist is a hard model to live up to.

So I'm not allowed to resist at all then, okay.

And what does your salary have to do with the price of fish in china? Once I graduate I'll be working for X company here making a SEVEN figure salary, to which I'll spend half of that on getting my phallus enlarged then we can slap each other silly in a sword fight, where I'll win because mine is longer.

So nukemarine: Correct me if I'm wrong, but despite the different duties there are inside the military, should your country go support the war in, Iraq say, wouldn't you have to fight?

You're having too many conversations, making it difficult to respond to you.

liosama wrote:

Okay it was my mistake to label myself as a pacifist, I do love peace and justice but I agree with violence when it is done against a stronger oppressing power. That was my bad, most of the arguments against me were based on that word alone.

What does the strength of the oppressing or opposing power have to do with resisting violence upon yourself (or a country)? Here's some things I agree with:

1. Counter an unprovoked attack, leaving the attacker subdued or in some way unable to attack again but otherwise unharmed (best result of a bad situation)

2. Counter an unprovoked attack, leaving the attacker dead or destroyed

3. Counter a provoked attack (caused by goading or some other unacceptable action). This usually is intended to create a bad result.

4. Initiate an attack against a provoking opponent. Subduing the opponent.

5. Initiate an attack against a provoking opponent, killing or destroying him.

6. Initiate an attack against an innocent. (this is the worst).

Now, you can say that passive resistance is best, but in a way that's a means to recreate reaction 1 against an opponent that's not really wanting to kill you.

liosama wrote:

nukemarine wrote:

You are a part of society, as such you are a part of what society creates and upholds. Unless you grow your own food, make your own guns and ammo, supply your own power, provide your own protection, etc. then you are in part to blame for any ills that your society creates.

Yeah because the protests I take part in aren't really getting me anywhere, so an idea! I'll just take over the Australian ministry of defense in order to get what I want, I'll then start a revolution inside Australia and then run the country myself!! How bout that, then I won't be called a hypocrite for having an opinion!!!

My question is why aren't you doing that? Ah, it's easier to move ones mouth than to move the mountain of bureaucracy and government. What's the point of your "protests" if not to change the actions of the Australian ministry of defense anyway. The thing is, you're trying to bring about that change using the very system that's also empowering the ministry.

It's easy to be an unintentional hypocrite. Most of the time, it's a hypocrite by proxy. Now, are you willing to accept that it's very difficult to 100% against something? Plus, don't forget that just because the person protesting something is a hypocrite does not invalidate the reason they're protesting.

liosama wrote:

Yes because being in the army is all about cleaning toilets and wearing a uniform. Every conscript in israel has to serve at a military check point. As I said before, the problem comes down to ignorance, should a soldier know truly know what they're getting into, they wouldn't do it in the first place. I was specifically arguing the case of people enlisting during the time of war, when propaganda is afloat. Perhaps that wasn't clear?

You know, this discussion would be easier if you stuck to one country's military. Bringing up the Israeli military's actions means bringing the fact they are bombed on a regular basis which tends to skew how one reacts in society. You don't see me bringing up Iran or Djibouti's military structure to alter the argument to fit my viewpoint. I try to stick to the US military.

liosama wrote:

My hatred for soldiers is not blind, it comes out of loving humans? I still haven't been convinced as to other reasons why someone would join the army. I totally understand the list Jarvik's made. But that is still going against the fact that a soldier, will go to Iraq, Afghanistan fighting against them ultimately thinking they're there to free the country when they probably have little idea of the history and how it got to be like that in the first place.

Wait, when did Israel go to Afghanistan? You're confusing me. Oh, now we're back to the US military. Out of interest, by your first paragraph, I assume it's ok for you if an Afghanistan joins a local militia to resist NATO actions in Afghanistan? Personally I'm cool with the idea, though it does mean one extra person (honorable and idealistic person at that) that might need to be killed.

liosama wrote:

nukemarine wrote:

Liosama,
In all honesty, I don't think you are a pacifist. You strike me as a person who locks his doors, does not disclose the pin number to your ATM card, keeps your passwords secret.

As a matter of fact, I don't lock my door, but I do keep my pin number disclosed because my money can get stolen yo. And yo I don't see what that has to do with not liking war. (Or even being a pacifist)

liosama wrote:

nukemarine wrote:

If someone came to your place to take your computer, I get the feeling you're the type of person that would resist him. A true pacifist is a hard model to live up to.

So I'm not allowed to resist at all then, okay.

Well, you tell me. You're the one stating what the rules of the game should be. Based on your statement above, a person and country should be able to resist a stronger oppressor. The thing is, that will mean some violence if things escalate.

The military should be there if violence is visited upon the country. That's in keeping with reaction number 1 in the list I gave above. It meshes with your agreeing that one can protect one's resources (money in your case or oil, land, minerals, etc in the case of a country). If there's no military or at least an armed populace, then it's like leaving your door unlocked. Anyone can walk in a take what they want once they have the desire, will, and ability.

Such a military and armed populace (Sweden comes to mind, though I could be wrong), in a defensive position, is an honorable military. It's keeping with reaction number one. The US and others on the other hand, seem to do either number 3, 4 and 5 a lot of the times. It's hard to morally justify such actions without being rightfully called a hypocrite.

liosama wrote:

And what does your salary have to do with the price of fish in china? Once I graduate I'll be working for X company here making a SEVEN figure salary, to which I'll spend half of that on getting my phallus enlarged then we can slap each other silly in a sword fight, where I'll win because mine is longer.

So nukemarine: Correct me if I'm wrong, but despite the different duties there are inside the military, should your country go support the war in, Iraq say, wouldn't you have to fight?

You were calling me stupid. I was saying you can call me stupid while you pay me all day long.

Good skills to you on getting your job and getting your dick size increased. However, I'll abstain from any penis fights with you as it might be considered a homosexual act which is forbidden by Article 125 of the UCMJ. But you're in Sydney, so I'm sure you'll find some fellow willing to help you practice your sword techniques.

To your question, I'm in the US military (US Navy). My year in Djibouti was in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. Not sure if that's a yes though as I haven't had to "fight" at least in the way I view fighting.

i just wanted to say thanks to smackle for posting this, i found it interested and ended up watching most of that war series on youtube, as well as some of the other videos and additional articles on countercurrents.

my brother just ended his term in the army and while he said he enjoyed his time out in Iraq for the pure "coolness" of it (being in a foreign place in extreme circumstances) he doesn't recommend it and says that he wouldn't do it again.  He described his job in the army as being sort of a "mercenary for the government", and after watching the videos and doing some more reading, i can totally see what he means by that.  I asked him if he had gone through any "training" to "teach" him about the enemy he was fighting, and he said no, that there really wasn't anything like that, you just learn about the job you are going to do and then go out there for that. 

All in all, i felt the videos did a great job of giving objective commentary on war and the people involved in it.  I liked the multi-national approach the creators of the video took, interviewing people from many different countries and getting their words on the subject.  I feel these videos have great educational value, because they aren't trying to get you to think a certain way, they are just exposing you to the realities of it and letting you make your own decision. 

I do hope that someday we as intelligent human beings find another way to settle affairs besides pitting our citizens against one another in a deathmatch.

@Icecream - I guess it's my turn to be deeply offended. How dare you suggest that we wear shiny suits! (btw, I don't recall any MoralBankruptcy201 training...)  ;-)

@Nukemarine, thanks for explaining. Looks like I had the wrong idea about foreign income. Just to make sure I understand it now: 
- Your income is Japan is considered US income and is taxed at regular US rates.
- As military, you're exempt from Japanese income tax (even if you live off base.)
- Since there's no foreign income, the $90K exemption doesn't apply.

Yeah, $$ is a tricky problem. I have no problem generously compensating young men and women who are actually risking their lives. (Let's face it, this focus on killing seems to downplay the 'getting killed' part. It's unimaginable to most of us.) On the other hand, we don't want high compensation to be what entices poor folks who have few options and who don't believe in what they're doing.

Nukemarine wrote:

IceCream, this may sound cruel, but most adults can opt out of society at any moment. I never think suicide is a reasonable option, and neither do most people.

WTF it this?  That's not what Ice Cream was talking about.  You call the people in this thread hypocritical because they benefit from the services of society.  IceCream pointed out that's an unfair argument because the system makes it nearly possible to opt out of society [while living].  How suicide has anything to do with that is beyond me.


I also don't see how bragging about your inordinately large paycheck is relevant to this discussion.

You know who would've been happy if decent human beings didn't have a military? Hitler.

bodhisamaya wrote:

nest0r wrote:

You know who would've been happy if decent human beings didn't have a military? Hitler.

Germany was a nation of decent human beings until Hitler came into power.  No military= Hitler never makes the history books.

Why wouldn't the Nazis have a military?