gyuujuice wrote:

Maybe in listening, but I don't think they would be able to read N1 material. By the end of 6th grade you should know 1000 -- which is half of the 常用漢字. :\

Yes, but those are the 1000 kanji they`re taught how to write and are expected to reproduce from memory, it doesn`t take into account all of the hundreds of others they encounter while reading books. By the sixth grade, kids are reading novels and doing reports on articles they find in the newspaper, so they get exposed to the rest of the kanji on a regular basis. And whereas many of us, as JSL students, are seeing a new vocabulary word with a new kanji all the time, by the time these kids get around to the kanji of a word, they`ve already been very familiar with the vocabulary and have heard it and used it throughout their lives.

I think if anything, the grammar section might be tricky. The older grammar forms they may not encounter until they have to read literature in junior high or high school.

socrat wrote:

I showed the N2 test to a native speaker and she thought the reading was exceptionally hard for the the supposed level of N2.

I think I agree with thurd on this in that it was more politeness than anything. My girlfriend did the same thing when I showed her N1 stuff and said I should be teaching Japanese if I could understand this stuff, meanwhile every single time I get a question wrong and show her she immediately figures out the answer and has never gotten one wrong

I don`t want to give the impression that I think the JLPT is for wimps (as it does a good job of kicking my ass), but its still not the end of the journey (depending on your goals of course). I got a dose of reality the other day when looking at the 日本語検定 for native speakers and seeing problems in the mid-levels that seemed about N1 difficulty, then checking the chart and seeing that it was 初級II level.

Last edited by julianjalapeno (2010 November 08, 5:23 pm)

mezbup wrote:

If anything, passing JLPT1 is the beginning of the journey.

can't agree with this more

Last edited by ta12121 (2010 November 08, 5:47 pm)

Womacks23 wrote:

I showed the N2 test to Japanese elementary school kids. 6th graders had no problem, 5th graders were iffy and 4th graders had no idea what was going on.

I also showed N1 to junior high students. Same results. 3rd graders couldn't find very many hard questions, 2nd graders were missing grammar and 1st graders had no idea.

Just a small sample though and skewed by the fact these kids are at school and juku 6 days a week.

Great observations though. Basically a smart 6th grader has no problems with N2, and a smart 3rd grader (in HS) as no problems with N1.

Many Japanese people will say "oh that's so hard" or "even I can't read a newspaper." I don't want to call it bullshit- it's just culture. They're trying to make you feel good and more like you fit in. I had some of my 6th graders tell me that they regularly read the newspaper. The first time I heard that I was like "wait... what? Do you understand it?" They're like... yeah, of course.

People will say "ああ、日本語が上手ですねー" if you can string together the most basic of stuff. Sentences that equate to "Toilet where is free in the now are?" in English will get you the equivalent of a Gold Star and a Pat on the Head.

Seriously. I think back when I was there 3 years ago, and just cringe. And I heard that phrase a lot.

Viva Anki.

Your point it well taken. My dream is to one day have the level of proficiency that these kids do and one can get by quite well on `just`a teenager`s native ability.

I think the `mark of shame` is just that there are so few skills that a 9 year old can crush an adult at, especially a skill that the adult has been practicing hard on. When I`m sitting there furrowing my brow over some phrase I can`t quite make heads or tails of, then I look over and see two ten-year-olds shoving dirt into their pants and realizing that they know exactly what the phrase means, its kind of a strange feeling. But that`s language aquisition for you.

Has anyone in the US gotten their exam entrance tickets yet? Just wondering. Haven't got mine yet, and the website just says "mid-November."

I'd kind of like to know where precisely in DC, besides "Georgetown University" the exam will be, so I can get a decent hotel nearby.

JLPT1 is not a mastery of the Japanese language.

Quite the contrary actually: It's just the beginning of realizing how little you know.

No matter how long or how hard you study a second language you will never attain the "fluency" of a native (unless you were raised bilingual perhaps?), sorry to break it to you guys!

But that's not really the point of L2 learning is it?

rich_f wrote:

Woot. Admission voucher (US) showed up, along with a long list of "don't"s. Fun.

Same here. I'm tacking it to my wall as a reminder to study >_<

Jarvik7 wrote:

Most people simply become satisfied when they reach a good enough level and don't keep trying to improve actively.

There is nothing wrong with that. Depending on situation most learners don't really need stellar proficiency and each step further to fluency takes more time than all the previous combined.

Definition of fluency complicates this even more since what is "fluent" for one person is mediocre for another. But still he might get by very well on his "fluency", all depends of ones needs.

Jarvik7 wrote:

I wouldn't describe myself as native level, but my knowledge exceeds natives in several areas and lacks in others.

Yeah, I probably know more Go related vocabulary & terms than 95% of Japanese but that doesn't make me even one bit more "native" or "fluent".

Anyway to get back to the topic, I'm only 300 sentences away from finishing my first round with N2 grammar. After that it's just reviews, reviews, reviews and loads of simultaneous text+audio (FFXIII should be good for that). I'll work on past exams just before the actual test.

Last edited by thurd (2010 November 13, 8:37 pm)

slivir wrote:

No matter how long or how hard you study a second language you will never attain the "fluency" of a native (unless you were raised bilingual perhaps?), sorry to break it to you guys!

Let's play spot the native English speaker:

Exhbit 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIMSgkFTVBc

Exhibit 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dyoc917lZg

slivir wrote:

What I'm saying is that a L2 learner will always have some quirk which will set them apart from a native. It could be a slight intonation error or maybe you'll miss the point of some lesser known proverb. Whether you become "fluent" in your own eyes is beside the point, you will never be on the exact same level as a native. And that's fine.

Being native level doesn't mean you can understand everything in the target language, it means you can understand everything the average native speaker does. There are plenty of native speakers that will make the occasional intonational errors and miss the point of lesser known proverbs (i mean, that's what "lesser known" means right?). There are even native speakers in any society that are functionally illiterate for whatever reason.

If your definition of native-level is japanese-born-and-raised professor of japanese literature, then yeah, that's a hard target for a non-native to hit. It's also a damn hard target for your average japanese person to hit.