Javizy
Member
From: England
Registered: 2007-02-16
Posts: 770
There seem to be a number of users on this forum who have mastered English as a second language, and there are probably a number of English teachers/tutors as well. So I'm interested in hearing opinions on learning the English article system.
I've been designing some lessons for a Japanese friend of mine. Predictably, articles are a problem, and I'd really like to lay down some sort of foundation that could be built upon through exposure. I started off focusing on the definite article with common nouns based on this guide. It seemed to go well.
I wanted to follow up with a lesson on the indefinite/zero article, but I couldn't come up with a simple, yet well rounded set of rules. If you read something like Swan or the plethora of online grammar articles, it starts to seem hopeless. しかーしっ, after reading a few articles on the semantics of referents, I'm beginning to understand the logic behind it. It seems like the explanations exist, but resources aimed at students/teachers hardly seem to touch on them.
While I'm still pondering this stuff, I thought I'd ask for some different perspectives on the topic from you guys.
よろしく～
Zarxrax
Member
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 949
I've been having the same problem with a friend of mine. Shes pretty good at english, except when it comes to articles. I've tried to find some resources to help her, but none of the things I have found seem to be comprehensive enough.
One particular problem she has, is knowing whether or not to even use an article. Sometimes she tosses them in when its not appropriate, and other times she just leaves them out. To be honest, I don't even understand the rules of when to use them either, despite it being my native language :p
For instance, you say "I went to school", but you say "I went to the mall".
And sometimes they seem to be completely optional: "I had steak" / "I had the steak"
Now, it drives me crazy because I don't understand it :p
wccrawford
Member
From: FL US
Registered: 2008-03-28
Posts: 1551
Zarxrax wrote:
For instance, you say "I went to school", but you say "I went to the mall".
And sometimes they seem to be completely optional: "I had steak" / "I had the steak"
Now, it drives me crazy because I don't understand it :p
It has a lot to do with how specific you are being and your audience.
"I went to school" - You are merely saying that you went for some schooling. Implied is that it was at the school you usually go to.
"I went to the school" - You went to a physical building, but probably not for schooling. You expect your audience to know which particular school.
"I went to a school" - You went to a physical building, probably not for schooling, and you don't expect your audience to know which one.
Edit:
And for fun, the steak one:
"I had steak" - Focus is on the having. (Eating is implied.) Steak is just along for the ride.
"I had the steak" - Focus is on the steak and that it was the steak of that particular restaurant. For some reason, this is important. It is implied that you ate it.
"I had a steak" - Focus is on the steak, but it didn't really matter which steak it was or where you got it. Eating is implied, again.
Last edited by wccrawford (2010 March 14, 4:12 pm)
Javizy
Member
From: England
Registered: 2007-02-16
Posts: 770
Zarxrax wrote:
I've been having the same problem with a friend of mine. Shes pretty good at english, except when it comes to articles. I've tried to find some resources to help her, but none of the things I have found seem to be comprehensive enough.
One particular problem she has, is knowing whether or not to even use an article. Sometimes she tosses them in when its not appropriate, and other times she just leaves them out. To be honest, I don't even understand the rules of when to use them either, despite it being my native language :p
For instance, you say "I went to school", but you say "I went to the mall".
And sometimes they seem to be completely optional: "I had steak" / "I had the steak"
Now, it drives me crazy because I don't understand it :p
I think the key to the definite article is that both the speaker and listener need to know what the noun refers to.
'I had a steak today' is still specific - it refers to the exact steak you ate - but it's indefinite because I don't know which steak you mean.
'I had the steak again' is specific in the same way, but it also presupposes I know exactly which steak you mean, and is therefore definite.
'I eat a steak every week' is generic (non-specific), since it doesn't refer to any particular steak, and indefinite because I can't assume which steak you're referring to.
'The steak has been an American favourite for centuries' is generic, since it doesn't refer to any one particular steak, and definite because of the presumption of shared knowledge - I know that 'the steak' refers to the class of steaks as a whole. [this example seems a bit unnatural for some reason, though...]
That's the gist of it, as far as I've learnt. The 'presumption of shared knowledge' requires you to consider many factors, and becomes very unclear at times though. Examples like 'go to bed' only confuse things further. I still think it's possible to lay down some general rules for common nouns though, and then treat the exceptions separately. I'm still working on it at least...
Last edited by Javizy (2010 March 14, 4:54 pm)
wccrawford wrote:
Zarxrax wrote:
For instance, you say "I went to school", but you say "I went to the mall".
And sometimes they seem to be completely optional: "I had steak" / "I had the steak"
Now, it drives me crazy because I don't understand it :p
It has a lot to do with how specific you are being and your audience.
"I went to school" - You are merely saying that you went for some schooling. Implied is that it was at the school you usually go to.
"I went to the school" - You went to a physical building, but probably not for schooling. You expect your audience to know which particular school.
"I went to a school" - You went to a physical building, probably not for schooling, and you don't expect your audience to know which one.
Of course, if you make the sentence longer then it becomes more complicated:
I went to school in New York.
I went to the school in town.
I went to a school in New York.
I have corrected papers for friends who are non-native speakers, and articles are definitely one of the most difficult problems. It's one of those things that seems easy on first glance but it's actually horrifically complicated. You don't realize how many oddities there are about the system until you read a non-native speaker's work (one that has article mistakes).
One problem is that the general rule that "the" applies to a specified noun is problematic because often it refers to an abstract concept that actually does not refer to a previously specified noun, for instance:
"The particle 'yo' expresses the speaker's feeling that the listener does not know the information in the sentence."
Rather than referring to previously specified speakers or sentences, they implicitly create a hypothetical situation where someone has spoken a sentence with "yo" to another person, thus setting up an understood speaker, listener, and sentence, which can all be referred to with "the". I notice that it's a particularly common error for non-native speakers to either use "a" or no article here.
In my experience (which may be too limited), most of the errors made involve using "a" or no article where "the" should be used instead. It doesn't seem like overusing "the" is as much of a problem. It also seems to me like there are a large number of idiomatic phrases that take "the" when you wouldn't necessarily expect it -- for instance, "the difference between X and Y" doesn't necessarily mean that there is only one, specific difference between them.
Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 March 14, 5:05 pm)
genini1
Member
From: America
Registered: 2010-02-03
Posts: 22
This is all from a post on the HtLAL forum, not my own writing.
DEFINITE ARTICLE
THE
Articles in English are invariable. That is, they do not change according to the gender or number of the noun they refer to, e.g. the boy, the woman, the children
'The' is used:
1. to refer to something which has already been mentioned.
Example: An elephant and a mouse fell in love.
The mouse loved the elephant's long trunk,
and the elephant loved the mouse's tiny nose.
2. when both the speaker and listener know what is being talked about, even if it has not been mentioned before.
Example: 'Where's the bathroom?'
'It's on the first floor.'
3. in sentences or clauses where we define or identify a particular person or object:
Examples: The man who wrote this book is famous.
'Which car did you scratch?' 'The red one.'
'My house is the one with a blue door.'
4. to refer to objects we regard as unique:
Examples: the sun, the moon, the world
5. before superlatives and ordinal numbers: (see Adjectives)
Examples: the highest building, the first page, the last chapter.
6. with adjectives, to refer to a whole group of people:
Examples: the Japanese (see Nouns - Nationalities), the old
7. with names of geographical areas and oceans:
Examples: the Caribbean, the Sahara, the Atlantic
8. with decades, or groups of years:
Example: she grew up in the seventies
It's a pretty good summary imo.
wccrawford wrote:
yudantaiteki wrote:
wccrawford wrote:
"I went to school" - You are merely saying that you went for some schooling. Implied is that it was at the school you usually go to.
"I went to the school" - You went to a physical building, but probably not for schooling. You expect your audience to know which particular school.
"I went to a school" - You went to a physical building, probably not for schooling, and you don't expect your audience to know which one.
Of course, if you make the sentence longer then it becomes more complicated:
I went to school in New York.
I went to the school in town.
I went to a school in New York.
Umm... No, those aren't any different than my examples. They mean exactly the same thing and only specify the place more exactly. You'll have to get a LOT more complicated than that to break my 'rules'.
I disagree. "I went to a school in New York" and "I went to the school in town" both are highly likely to mean that you went there for schooling, unlike the versions you posted. "My parents didn't have enough money for private school, so I went to the public school in town" has nothing to do with the physical building of the school. You can also say that sentence to someone who knows nothing about your town, and they will infer that there is only one public school in your town.
Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 March 14, 5:10 pm)
nadiatims
Member
Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 1676
Countable nouns:
In english, any countable noun must be specified in some way:
We met at the station. ('the' mutually understood station.)
We met at that station. (that station over there)
We met at Hiroshima Station. (specific because there is only one)
I borrowed Tom's erasor. (Tom's erasor)
or
left indefinate and singular by using 'a' or 'an'
I ate an apple. (one of the many)
He is a student. (again one of many)
or
pluralised (often used to speak in general terms).
Those are roses.
I like apples. (apples in general)
I don't like people. (people in general)
If a countable noun is left unspecified or pluralised the listener is likely to wonder 'which' thing it is you're talking about.
Uncountable nouns:
Including liquids, substances or materials (water, oil, wood, dark matter) or intangible concepts (love, peace etc)
Can be specified in the same way as countable nouns:
I refuse to drink this water. (this)
I poured some oil into the machine. (a small quantity of oil)
Hey! That's my dark matter! (my)
Can you feel the love? (the mutually understood love)
or
left indefinate:
This desk is made of wood.
Peace is a wonderful thing.
Further notes:
By using the indefinate article (a/an) with an uncountable noun, we essentially stop thinking of it as an uncountable thing (liquid,substance,concept etc) and think of it as a countable object.
eg:
Hi, I'd like an orange juice please. (here orange juice is a countable noun (a cup of orange juice), so it must be specified.)
compare:
I like orange juice.
I enjoyed that orange juice.
(here orange juice refers to the uncountable fruity liquid and specifation is optional.)
If an otherwise countable noun is left unspecified, we stop thinking about it as a countable object.
eg:
I go to school. (which school is unimportant)
I'm going to bed now. (which bed is unimportant)
In a sense these usages are perhaps idiomatic, because we would probably never say "I go to park" or "I go to shop". Unfortunate Japanese students aren't generally told this and "I go to school" is one of the first sentences they learn.
