Sadly this was Icecreams last post. EVER!

Ya big fat quitter.

Thailand is the only country I ever traveled to where I didn't try to at least learn how to say 'please' and 'thank-you'. From my limited experience, it is highly tonal and pitch-sensitive (high, low, rising, falling) - to the point where Thai men who learn English from a female instructor end up sounding, err, very feminine... then again they are fairly free about gender expression in Bangkok, so maybe it was intentional. I was only in Bangkok a few days, but people were friendly. The script is super-cool. The temples are amazing and the food is fantastic. I have friends who spent more time in the smaller towns and villages, and had outstanding experiences there.

Indonesian, by contrast, is incredibly easy to learn. I lived in Indonesia off and on in elementary school and in middle/high school. I learned functional, but not quite conversational, Indonesian in just a few months (and that was just classes so it's not like I was really trying!). There is no conjugation, grammar is incredibly basic, pronunciation is straightforward and it uses Roman script so it's pretty much just learning the vocabulary. Bahasa Indonesia (literally Indonesian Language) was invented after unification so as not to give speakers any one of the existing languages (there are hundreds) an advantage. It is taught in the public schools and all but the oldest people speak it - some speak a local language as well, but many are dying out.

Culturally, Indonesia is diverse. Predominantly moderate Muslim, there is an ethnic Chinese minority that, unfortunately, was scapegoated during the late-90's economic collapse, so I cannot say that I got the impression that everyone is tolerant and easy-going. The most shocking thing (and this may be confined to the big cities) is the disparity between rich and poor. Marble-floored multi-story mansions with multiple uniformed security guards and barbed-wire covered garden walls are literally next door to corrugated metal shacks where people drink, fish, bathe and... you know... in the same muddy river.

Traditional arts and music are very much alive, and the natural landscape is fascinating - I spent my free periods in high school bird-watching from the cafeteria. I played in a gamelan (Indonesian traditional) orchestra at my international high school, and learned to make batik (wax-resist fabric). Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to experience traditional theater - the most famous of which is wayang kulit (intricately painted leather shadow puppets).

Indonesia, at least Jakarta, is not as safe, in general, as Japan, or Thailand for that matter, but it's all a matter of perspective. As an adolescent girl my mom let me go anywhere, as long as I was with somebody. I didn't walk alone at night, though, and most people who did carried a golf club or umbrella (partly to fend off stray dogs...).

I'd recommend picking up a couple of Lonely Planet or Culture Shock books at your library, or just browse the intros in a bookstore - they can give you a good cultural context in a nutshell if you're comparison-shopping

P.S.: I also spent a few weeks in Singapore. So safe that they have billboards warning people that "Low crime doesn't mean no crime!" I took the subway alone (at 15) every day, any time of day. I think they have like a dozen official languages including English, so I'm not sure how necessary it is for them to import native speakers, as it were. And it's a little bit like living in Disneyland - clean to the point of being sterile, and a little bit artificial and oppressive. (Chewing gum is illegal, but at least (unlike other minor crimes) it's not punishable by caning!) There seem to be pockets of local culture (usually Malay, Chinese or Indian - I can't remember seeing any evidence of 'traditional' Singaporean culture, if that's even different than Malaysian culture), but otherwise very modern, built-up and cosmopolitan.

Last edited by Delina (2010 March 13, 8:41 pm)

Wow, I was just thinking recently that people like IceCream and ta12121 could get so far in Thai in a short amount of time. I would like to see your results. Haha.

I'm learning both Thai and Japanese right now. I suck at both of them, but I think Thai is the easier language. Simpler grammar. No conjugations. Fewer characters. Like Japanese, there are no spaces between words, you can leave out subjects of sentences, there are counters/classifiers for everything. Thai has 5 tones, but I think you can get comfortable with them pretty quickly with an SRS and audio files (or by talking to Thai people).

The weather is Thailand is hot, the food is great and cheap, the people are nice, and it feels pretty safe to me, although though there are protests going on right now in Bangkok: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8565658.stm

Delina wrote:

Indonesian, by contrast, is incredibly easy to learn. I lived in Indonesia off and on in elementary school and in middle/high school. I learned functional, but not quite conversational, Indonesian in just a few months (and that was just classes so it's not like I was really trying!). There is no conjugation, grammar is incredibly basic, pronunciation is straightforward and it uses Roman script so it's pretty much just learning the vocabulary.

Yeah, I learned Indonesia in high school for about 5 years and have visited a few times. It's a relatively simple language to learn (much easier than Japanese). Although I disagree that there is *no* conjugation type stuff. Turning nouns into verbs using ber- or mem- can sometimes be confusing, but it's nothing near the level of Japanese type word ending changes.

I have no experience with Thai, but I'm sure IceCream would find learning Indonesian extremely simple. Last time I visited I picked up the first couple of volumes of Detective Conan translated into Indonesian from the local book store. Manga seems to be fairly popular over there (there was a fairly diverse selection where I was), so you could even use it as an opportunity to ladder Japanese-->Indonesian.

Why not move to Okinawa or some other fair weather place in Japan?

I can recommend a really good place for TEFL (CELTA) in Thailand if you want, I studied there before coming to Japan. Thailand is great but I wouldn't wanna live there, as most of the jobs are in Bangkok and Bangkok is full on (noise, traffic, pollution).

Japan is sunny btw. It's just a bit cold in winter. IMO it's best to live in Japan and go to Thailand on holiday

Today was a perfect warm and sunny day in Hirakata, Osaka

IceCream wrote:

i have decided to ditch japan in favour of somewhere sunnier ^_^. For instance... Thailand. it seems there's a lot of teaching jobs there too, and TEFL courses are cheap. Plus it looks like there's a good standard of living for the wages. Might be a good place to start, i can always go to Japan in the future sometime. (or on holiday?)

I went to Thailand during February and it was the stickiest I ever felt.  I was sweating while taking a shower.  From what others have told me, most teachers have several part time jobs and you have to cross the border ever month (I think it was changed to every three months recently) to renew your visa.  The pay is equivalent to US$5/hour so making a trip to Japan will eat up a year's savings.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2010 March 14, 5:42 am)

Asriel wrote:

Funny how sometimes -4°C can seem like "Oh, what a nice refreshing breeze," whereas 0°C can seem like "Jesus, why the hell is it so cold out?"
Guess I'll never get the hang of the metric system...

Why would a lower temperature feel more pleasant? Windchill (in both metric and imperial) makes a big difference though if you're not accounting for that.

I went to my last two years of university in Edmonton where it drops below -50C with windchill in February, so I have no sympathy for people who think Japan is cold

Babyrat wrote:

but why? Why go so far to give up something you have strived so hard to achieve? Somewhere warmer? try saying that in a Japanese summer down in the south, if you can mange to say it through the panting.

To me it just sounds really odd to give up something that you have poured so much time into, maybe you are just having a downer period? I had 1 a couple of months ago where I really wanted to learn korean and ditch Japanese.

Most people who study Japanese reach a point where they feel like giving up either through boredom or frustration with not progressing as they'd like, or burnout. This is when many switch to studying Korean or Chinese. The remainder keep on keeping on.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2010 March 14, 5:50 am)

Jarvik7 wrote:

Most people who study Japanese reach a point where they feel like giving up either through boredom or frustration with not progressing as they'd like, or burnout. This is when many switch to studying Korean or Chinese. The remainder keep on keeping on.

I don't understand why someone would 'ditch' a language because it is too hard and then try to learn a new language that is about equally difficult (from what I have heard, never studied Korean or Chinese myself). Just go on to learn Spanish or something then

Jarvik7 wrote:

I went to my last two years of university in Edmonton where it drops below -50C with windchill in February, so I have no sympathy for people who think Japan is cold

Also being from Edmonton, I never think it's cold here.  When it crosses my mind that it's a little chilly, I just think to how cold it would be back home and then it's okay again.  I never hear snow squeak like styrofoam here, my eyelashes never freeze together, and this is the first winter I never got frostbite.

Thai culture... well, they are poor and turn themselves into females to sustain themselves. From what I hear from all my friends (Swedes for some reason love Thailand, pretty much everyone I know has been there at least once), it's a great place to party and not so great place to live. You want to be there as a foreigner enjoying the weather, not as a member of Thai society. The language sounds really odd to me, probably my least favorite of the asian languages. Of course, that's just my opinion on the small amount of Thai I've heard, I can't say how it changes once you get proficient in it.